*eyeroll*
Apparently, now there’s a new witness who claims that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman:
The witness told FOX 35 in Orlando that he saw evidence of a fight between Martin and Zimmerman, which could lend credence to the gunman’s claim that he was acting in self-defence.
‘The guy on the bottom who had a red sweater on was yelling to me: “Help, help… and I told him to stop and I was calling 911,’ he said.
Zimmerman was wearing a red sweater; Martin was in a grey hoodie.
He added: ‘When I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point.’
This account is drastically different from the portrait painted of Martin by his friends and acquaintances.
Even assuming this new witness isn’t full of crap (and that’s a generous assumption), this new revelation changes nothing. Jesse Singal at Washington Monthly breaks it down:
The fact that this anonymous witness thinks Martin was beating up Zimmerman is worthless once you factor in the unreliability of eyewitness testimony, especially in moments of chaos and physiological arousal. The human brain simply isn’t well-built to look out at a scene like the one John witnessed and quickly determine who is beating up who or the nature of the altercation.
So the evidence provided by John points to only one certain fact (and this is buttressed by the cops, who did say that Zimmerman had a broken nose when they got to him): there was a tussle between Zimmerman and Martin. On its own that tells us very little.
The 911 call indicates that Zimmerman decided well before the shooting that he thought Martin was suspicious, and had begun to follow him (against the advice of the 911 dispatcher). So we have a sequence like this:
1) Zimmerman calls 911 to report the “suspicious” Martin.
2) Zimmerman begins to pursue Martin.
3) ???
4) Zimmerman and Martin get in a fight.
5) Zimmerman shoots Martin.Everything is speculation at this point, of course. But given what we know about Zimmerman’s penchant for heightened vigilance (46 emergency calls in the last six years) and the consensus view that Martin was a completely sweet, nonconfrontational kid (yes, he was suspended from school, but for tardiness), I just don’t see how this changes anything. As of now, there’s no reason to think Martin did anything that a reasonable person would consider likely to provoke getting shot.
I agree with Singal’s analysis. I would, however, add a coda to his statement — there’s no reason to think Martin did anything that a reasonable person would consider likely to provoke getting shot… aside from being black.
If Trayvon were a white kid walking around a gated neighborhood in a hoodie, he would be alive. Period.
UPDATE: Eric Boehlert of Media Matters pointed out that there is no byline for the Daily Mail article. It is written by “Daily Mail Reporter.” Odd, no?
utterly bogus UK Mail story about “new” Trayvon Martin witness was written by “reporter”; no byline; bit.ly/GMFskL #figures
— Eric Boehlert (@EricBoehlert) March 25, 2012
why is @tobyharnden pushing bogus story about “new” Trayvon Martin witness at UK Mail? And why has Mail headline been whitewashed?
— Eric Boehlert (@EricBoehlert) March 25, 2012
hey @tobyharnden: UK Mail’s “new” Trayvon Martin witness gave those quotes to FL media in **Feb.** when will Mail post correction?
— Eric Boehlert (@EricBoehlert) March 25, 2012
[via Washington Monthly]
[cross-posted at Balloon Juice]
So, he pursues Trayvon, gets his fucking ass whooped, despite being 100 pounds heavier and 11 years older, but that’s an excuse for him to pull out a gun and shoot an unarmed kid, in which he initiated the attack on?
And this is what the right is gonna hang its hat on?
I hope to god Trayvon whooped his ass good, humiliated him, made him feel like less of a man. I hope that and the look of terror in this child’s eyes, as this coward took out a 9 mm, and shot him to death.
I hope it all comes out and the world knows this piece of garbage for the child killing punk he really is, and may he live a long life, behind bars.
If Zimmerman reacted out of the fact he was humiliated by a teenage black kid, him and Emmett Till have even more in common.
This guy is full of crap. His testimony conflicts with the 911 tapes which refer to “the guy in the white tee shirt (Zimmerman) on top of the one in the dark shirt”. Even IF Trayvon Martin hit him, he was obviously only doing so to get this lunatic he never met before to stop chasing him. Zimmerman forced the confrontation and he should be held accountable for scaring the crap out of this kid before murdering him.
Where are the clothes Zimmerman was wearing that night? If he shot Trayvon because Trayvon was winning the fight, then there should be blood spatter all over his clothes.
I don’t give a shit what this “witness” claims. If he saw something, why did he wait a month to say anything? Why did he not wait for the police to arrive and tell them then? Why does it matter if the kid broke Zimmerman’s nose (I so hope he did). So next time I go to Florida I’m going to start a fight with a random stranger. If I start to lose I’ll just shoot them, then it will be self defense.
this is nowhere near a new witness. he made his statement on feb 27th. you sound like just another person who wants to believe a version of events that didn’t happen just so you can be outraged. look more into the facts of the case. here’s the link. look where it says “published”. 2/27/12.
http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1phFMGCu4
Hence the mocking quotation marks around the word “new,” genius.
Then tell your beloved Fox to stop reporting it as new. If you’re not outraged by the murder of an innocent unarmed kid, then you have no soul.
I’ve suspected all along that Trayvon likely died trying to defend himself against Zimmerman. This account, along with that of Trayvon’s girlfriend, makes it seem even more likely.
I don’t believe Trayvon just decided to start a fight with Zimmerman. I think what could have happened was Trayvon just blew off this guy and started to leave, and Zimmerman put his hand on Trayvon or something like that to keep him present till the cops showed up. Which any physical contact in a situation like this, is at least simple assault,, and Trayvon then defended himself. But I heard a few days ago, two female witness who came on the scene just after the was fired, saw Zimmerman sitting on Trayvon, who was likely already dead.
You guys are clowns. Do your homework “Angry” woman. This isnt a new witness, MYFoxOrlando reported this a while ago, but the media has conveniently ignored it.
http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation
Just exactly who was holding the fucking gun? Go away from here. Trying to turn Trayvon into the aggressor just ain’t going to cut it. BE GONE TROLL!!!
Hey, take it up with your boss, Rupert Murdoch. It’s his paper reporting this as a “new witness.”
Thanks for stopping by, “Jamal” or “Leroy” or whatever your black nom de plume is.
Cheers.
Btw, the “innocent” Trayvon might have busted up Zimmerman’s nose. Not saying he deserved to get shot, but maybe all the info isnt quite out yet.
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/zimmerman-attorney-to-anderson-cooper-trayvon-martin-broke-my-clients-nose/
What would you do if you were walking home alone at night and someone was stalking you then accosted you and put his hands on you? Would you fight back or just stand there and let him assault you?
Zimmerman was entitled to ‘stand his ground’, but Trayvon got what he deserved for fighting back. That’s basically what it boils down to with some of the commenters I’ve seen.
Christ, I wish Trayvon had been the thug some of these schmucks are making him out to be. Then, maybe he would have been carrying.
I guess this explains why Big Man Zim has the walk around strapped. He provokes an altercation with a 140 pound kid and gets his ass kicked.
There was no apparent 911 call made to the police by this witness, so the story sounds BS unless the police did get the call. The women did call the police and there is a tape of their phone call.
Another fake black person troll on the internet. “Jamal” can’t you losers just try to be a little more creative
Maybe Zimmerman’s nose is broken because while playing Cherub of Justice and pursuing Trayvon he tripped over his own two feet and fell flat on his face.
Even if Trayvon broke Zimmerman’s nose, that’s still no reason for him to have been shot and killed.
Zimmerman is another bully — he can dish it out but he can’t take it. Unfortunately in this case, Zimmerman completely crossed the line. Why didn’t HE turn and run, and then call the police? Oh wait, I know the answer — because Trayvon was black, and of course, shooting and killing black people is the only answer.
:headdesk:
In the courtroom, there is no such thing as an anonymous witness … which no doubt explains why Zimmerman, his lawyer, and the local authorities that sanctioned his behavior will do everything in their power to prevent charges from being filed against this racist vigilante.
The “new witness” isn’t new. The witness was there and stated all of this to the POLICE. ITS IN THE POLICE REPORT. This is why the police ruled this a justified self defense shooting, AND IT PROBABLY IS.
Sorry to break this to you but it isn’t against the law to report a suspicious person to police and follow that person. Zimmerman had every right to be there. Zimmerman did not follow Martin into his own house and shoot him. They were both in a public place. The witness said Martin was on top of Zimmerman and beating the crap out of him. Zimmerman is heard yelling for help in a 911 call made by a witness. Police confirmed the yelling for help is Zimmerman, and also confirmed Zimmerman had a bloody nose and the back of his head was bleeding and probably needed stitches. If someone is on top of you and doing that kind of damage, that is a justified use of deadly force.
Obviously, this is a tragedy. I’m sure Martin was scared because he was being followed. But you can’t just go attack someone because they are following you.
It is against the law to report a suspicious person, follow that person, and then shoot that person.
What are you, an idiot? (rhetorical question.)
Plus didn’t the 911 dispatcher tell Zimmerman not to follow the person? And didn’t Zimmerman go right ahead and do it anyway? Pay attention yourself.
Yes. Because as he said in his 911 call, when Trayvon started running away from Zimmerman, Zimmerman was determined not to let him get away, because people like Trayvon always get away.
OK, Einstein, I’ll type this slowly so you might be able to grasp it…
Zimmerman, the failed Paul Blart wannabe, followed (chased, really) Martin, and put his hands on him in anger. That gave Martin the right to defend himself, which he apparently did well enough to deal out a good bit of damage to Blartnik’s face.
Blartnoodle didn’t like getting whomped by a kid and went for his piece. The cops, ever sympathetic to someone who shoots a kid for walking while black, let Blartley go.
Now, a month or so after the fact, “witnesses” are supposedly telling their alternate history of Blartenstein’s confrontation and cold-blooded murder.
So. Fucking. What?
He followed the kid when he was told not to, got into an ill-advised struggle and was losing, and decided that the “honorable” way out of an ass-handing-to was to kill the kid.
That’s called murder, and when I read bullshit like yours I just wish a friend of Martin’s had happened by carrying steel.
That’s definitely what the prosecution will argue, anyways. There’s probably reasonable doubt as to whether that happened, though.
Oh? What happened, then? Let’s hear what passes for speculation on your end…
This is why having no obligation to retreat is a poor idea. Because you get this kind of intepretation–”It’s legal to follow people around! And then to shoot them if they confront you!”
However, according to this interpretation of the law, Trayvon, if he’d only had a gun, would have been entitled to shoot Zimmerman, since being followed could reasonably have made him fear for his life. (Doubt the cops would have accepted that explanation, but there you are.)
Trayvon was afraid of Zimmerman. We know that. Why was he not entitled to attack? Has Florida actually redefined murder to the point that if your victim tries to defend himself, you can then kill him in self-defense?
Above and beyond everyone else, I have to paraphrase “Support Your Local Sheriff”: Is this really the kind of live we want to live? Under laws where the paranoid and the armed are entitled to shoot people on the street?
Sorry to break this to you but if the police tell you not to follow someone and you do it anyway then you deserve to get your ass whipped, including having your nose broken. No one would have been on top of Zimmerman if he had followed police dispatch instructions. Why is that so difficult to understand??? This was a totally unnecessary tragedy. Why is Zimmerman allowed to be above the law?
ummm in what country do you live in where it’s ok to physically attack someone because they’re following you? that’s one of the stupidest comments I’ve heard yet in a deep sea of ignorance.
Oh that’s right. This is the country of FLORIDA, where, if you’re walking around all suspicious and black looking and stuff, it’s ok for someone to stalk you. You can’t defend yourself and deserve to be shot if you confront the nut who obviously has it in for you. you have to just continue walking. Even if he yells stuff at you, threatens you, throws something at you- no matter what, don’t dare think you can justifiably take action against someone stalking you. If you’re black.
On the other hand, if you’re stalking an obviously black person you have the right to defend yourself from his blackness- even if it means taking his LIFE for confronting you or defending himself.
Cause you know that whole self-defense law? Doesn’t apply to unarmed black kids.
Dred Scott all day and still!
You have totally missed the mark. No matter how you look at this thing. No matter how you slice it, there is simply no justification for pulling a 9mm out on a 17-year old kid. It just simply doesn’t happen. The fact of the matter is Zimmerman provoked it by following a (in his own words) ‘a suspicious’ person that (in his own words) said, ‘he got his hands in his waist band’. Now, if this person was ‘suspicious’, ‘got his hands in his waist band’ and looked like he was up to ‘no good’, according to Zimmerman, why would I follow that person. Common sense would have told me that if I am following this type of person that surely something is going to happen. Why would I follow somebody that has there ‘hands in his waist band’ or somebody that ‘look suspicious’ or for that matter somebody that looked like they were up to ‘no good’. It is not my place to follow that person. That is what the police department is ‘trained’ to do. They are trained to know when and if it is appropriate to ‘follow’ a purported ‘suspicious’ person. None of this gave Zimmerman no right whatsoever to follow Martin. Quite frankly, it is dark-out-side and if you’re following someone at night from behind, that person you are following has every justified right to turn around and whoop your ass, simply because that in and of itself is sufficient reason for anyone to be frighten; especially a 17-year child. This whole thing about a ‘self-defense’ claim is perposterous. It simply makes no sense whatsoever. Florida law is clear that you can not initiate a confrontation and then expect to be immune from prosecution if you use deadly force. That is the first thing Zimmerman thought about when the police arrived. It makes no sense from any angle you look at this. Zimmerman was plainly wrong. Here we have a frequent flyer to the 911 call center. Almost every time Zimmerman reported someone, they always had to be ‘suspicious’ and they were always ‘black’. His own history of reporting ‘black’ males as ‘suspicious’ clearly show a pattern of ‘racial profiling’ which led the Trayvon Martin being killed, because BEFORE Zimmerman decided to continue to pursue or follow Trayvon, he made clear that ‘These assholes. They always get away.’…George Zimmerman had in his mind at that moment that no matter what, he was going to pursue Trayvon and be the one to make that arrest (even though he is NOT a sworn officer; but that night he chose to play cop and proxy the police) based on the color of his skin…The Sanford Police suggests by not arresting Zimmerman that it is ok to initiate a confrontation but when you’re in a loosing battle, you can use deadly force and claim self-defense and we won’t prosecute you. In other words, it is ok to follow behind someone you just can’t stand, grab them from behind, get slapped by that person and you can then pull out a 9mm and shoot them a point blank range in the chest. That seems to sum all of this up. It would fly in the face of justice if George Zimmerman is not indicted for manslaughter at the very bare minimum.
The person in his 911 call told him to stand down. He chose to follow and attack Martin anyway.
What legal defense is there for that again?
So what if the dispatcher advised him against following? The amour.t of attention this fact is getting is bizarre.
No, because it shows that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation. He was told very specifically to wait for the police. Consider something: What if Trayvon had also been legally armed? Zimmerman substituted his gun and testosterone for brains.
Actually, it seems more like Zimmerman substituted his gun for testosterone, doesn’t it?
Bingo.
Yeah, facts getting attention could be seen as inconvenient, couldn’t it?
So, if someone follows you with intent to harm YOU, you dont have the right to fight back?
If a woman fights her rapist back, and she gets killed, it’s her fault, right?
If a child sees a stranger following them, runs away and fights back, but gets killed, their fault, right?
Keep going, you’re doing great
Please. What a complete load of crap. Just like clockwork. First, let’s blame the murdered unarmed teen because he had the temerity to wear a hoodie out in public walking while black. Next? The anonymous incognito “eyewitness” coming forward with his version to support the killer’s story. Then the criminal defense attorney trying to rehabilitate his client in the “court of public opinion” when the real victim lies dead and buried and can’t refute this story. How special. If this clown actually gets charged, next there’ll be cries of unfairness and prejudice because “my poor client” can’t find a jury of his peers given all the national media attention. Since Sanford police did no real investigation at the time of this tragedy, who’s to say how the purported broken nose actually occurred. There are many stories on the Intertubes of people with broken teeth, broken noses, black eyes all caused by the recoil of their OWN GUN upon firing. The only goverment agency I believe at this point that will get to the bottom of this is the DOJ.
I’m getting tired of all these right wing fuckheads treating Trayvon Martin like a statistic all over again.
It’s bad enough the goddamned Sanford police fucked up the investigation beyond all repair to begin with. Now, somehow I’m supposed to believe that St. George Zimmerman was justified in shooting an innocent teenager, who god forbid, had the temerity to wear a hoodie while carrying his phone, skittles and ice tea.
“Saint” George was some trigger-happy fuck who (IMO) couldn’t wait to pop a cap in a young black kid. (“Innocent” in quotations, my ass, “Jamal”)
You motherfucks that defend this vigilante can go in a pond and drown for all I care. Why is it that when racial profiling and racist attitudes are OBVIOUS as the evidence that’s been presented, black folks are dismissed as playing the race card? I don’t appreciate that shit at all. It’s a coward ass way in avoiding the issue(s) (RACE/RACISM/RACIAL PROFILING) at hand.
Trayvon’s memory, his parents and the rest of his family deserve better.
Does it really matter that Zimmerman may have gotten his ass beat after initiating the confrontation with Trayvon? Where I come from the rule is “Don’t start none, won’t be none.” Zimmerman initiated the contact after being advised to keep his raggedy ass in his car, but he CHOSE to do otherwise. His behavior was bad enough but the number of people who seem to be gloating about or justifying the violent death of a 17 year old CHILD is horrifying and jaw-dropping. Makes me want to gather my two young grandsons, ages 4 and 10 months, and go hide in a bunker.
This world is ugly, ugly, ugly, ugly, ugly.
And sadly, there are a lot of people out there doing their damned best to make it even uglier.
People will turn themselves inside out looking for a way to justify it when a black kid gets shot. Oh, he must have “done something”. Well, he must have been a bad kid. Come on, we all know that so many blacks are in gangs that it only makes sense to assume they’re up to something…
And then they look for excuses to show why the killer wasn’t to blame. It’s the same with the Henry Louis Gates thing. People are still yammering on and on and on about how Gates was “mouthing off” to the police dude. I guess it means nothing that Gates was inside his own fucking house at the time; oh, no, it was only meet and right that the plucky policeman should haul that motherfucker uppity Gates off to jail.
If Zimmerman had been a sheet-wearing kkk guy and Martin had been pulling drowning puppies out of a creek at the time, a disheartening number of Americans would find a way to make it Martin’s fault. I don’t know; maybe it’s a way to make themselves believe that racism isn’t still a weeping sore in the U.S.:
If it really was Martin’s fault, if Zimmerman really was within his rights, then we can all breathe a little more easily, am I right? If it was all Martin’s fault, then racism can’t have had anything to do with it, right? And if racism had nothing to do with this little episode, then we can all go back to believing that our ugly legacy of racism—which let’s be honest, wasn’t all that bad; lots of slaves loved their owners and fought for the confederacy!—is all behind us, true? And if it’s all behind us, then I don’t have to care about it or about black Americans. And we all win!—well, maybe not black Americans, but, hey, racism’s all behind us, now! If they can’t get their act together, then that’s their fault and I don’t have to worry my pretty little head about them; I can turn my back on them all and still be an upstanding, righteous Christian dude! And we all win!—well, maybe not black Americans, but, hey… [repeat ad infinitum]
Great comment, as always.
If you say things like that that too often, it’ll go to my head and I’ll begin looking for a way to do this for a living. And nobody needs me doing this for a living, least of all the poor readers who’d be subjected to my natterings.
I’m sorry – If some dude is stalking me, I escape, and he shows up again, I’m going to do as much damage as possible, and go somewhere to report a fucking stalker.
I was stalked by undercover police officers here, fan them into a fucking telephone pole, and destroyed their car. They couldn’t say a fucking word, because they were undercover, and they were STALKING me.
Sheboon!
I’ve got like 4 posts on my blog about this (if this works right, clicking on my name will take you to it), and I say as a lawyer you are going way wrong on this.
There are three crucial questions here.
First, who struck the first blow?
Second, at the moment that Zimmerman shot, did he have a reasonable fear of death or serious bodily injury from Martin? Note: this doesn’t have to be that Martin ACTUALLY was a threat, only that he reasonably perceive it.
Third, if Zimmerman struck the first blow, did he have a reasonable opportunity to retreat safely? Contrary to what you might’ve heard, there are circumstances where you have to retreat in Florida.
As best as i can tell there is only one living witness who can answer those three questions: Zimmerman. Yes, you can be reasonably concerned that Zimmerman has every reason to lie if he did the wrong thing. But you need evidence to rebut his claims and so far i haven’t seen any on that particular point.
I will also add that this supposed new evidence sounds like it was aired the night after the incident. There is a post i called “Here’s a Video I Missed.” It seems like exactly the same guy, telling exactly the same story. And you will notice he doesn’t answer my crucial questions either.
Neither does it answer those questions to point out the very strong evidence of a struggle before the shooting. Zimmerman was observed with cuts on the back on his head, grass stuck to his neck, and a bloody nose. And two witnesses saw them fighting with the guy in the red sweater on the bottom. It doesn’t show us anything about those crucial three question but it calls into doubt the narrative that Zimmerman just ran him down and killed him. No, it looks very likely there was a fistfight first.
Btw, does the possibility that Zimmerman is a racist play into it? yes, of course it does. if Zimmerman thought his life was in danger because he is just terrified of black people generally, that is not a REASONABLE fear, and thus not sufficient for self-defense purposes. And there is some evidence of racial bias. not the fact he identified Trayvon as black–he was asked what color he was by the 911 operator. But i think he did say f—ing coons, though i wouldn’t stake my life on it. Or more precisely, his. I started out doubting he said that, but you can see video i posted where CNN enhanced the audio and when they enhanced it i changed my mind.
I think that if the Duke non-rape case should teach us anything, it is that we cannot judge these situations from afar. I remember watching all these people be so certain that the lacross players were guilty, and while i certainly believed it was possible, i never understood where people’s certainty came from. It wasn’t like they were there that night. the players’ subsequent exoneration verified that my initial impulse to reserve judgment proved to be correct. i would suggest we do the same here; reserve judgment.
At this point, we do not have anywhere near enough proof to get us beyond a reasonable doubt. As i said there seems to be only one living witness to the crucial questions: Zimmerman. You might very reasonably be concerned that Zimmerman would have an incentive to lie if he was guilty. But to overcome his testimony (assuming his testimony adds up to a proper invocation of self-defense), you need evidence. And saying “Trayvon was a peaceful kid” is not enough. Even good kids will take a swing at you if they are scared for instance.
But one thing that doesn’t seem to be in dispute is that this death is a tragedy. By all accounts he was a good kid. The reality is that the law allows for a little human error–for you to defend yourself when you reasonably believe yourself to be in danger, rather than solely when you ARE in danger. and that means inevitably innocent people will accidentally create that reasonable fear and get killed. Any feeling person’s heart goes out to the Martin family. Parents should never have to bury their children.
And before someone says that this aspect of the law should change–that you should only be allowed to defend yourself if and only if you are in actual danger, picture yourself confronted in the dark at night. a man pulls out something that looks like a gun and looks like he is about to fire. but you have a gun too, and you fire first. should you hesitate before you fire, afraid that if you are wrong–if the item turns out to be something other than a working gun–that you will spend years in prison? Can we expect a person to gamble with their lives?
Also before you condemn the stand your ground rules you should go to my site and read about the Bobbitt case. no, not THAT Bobbitt. In the Bobbitt case a woman was attacked in her bedroom by her husband and she shot him. She wanted to argue self-defense, but the Florida Supreme Court wouldn’t let her. Why? Because she could have retreated. It is precisely that kind of injustice that the Florida law was changed to address.
So, long story short, go to your site? Fuck you and your whole family! Get lost, spambag.
Well, all I can say is that I hope you’re wrong about this. I’m not a lawyer, so I don’t know shit, but, jeez, the guy followed Martin. Seems like that ought to wipe away any claim of self defense. Forget about “retreating”; he chose to follow Martin to begin with.
After being TOLD NOT TO. Geezus H.
Love it when these folks just ignore that Trayvon also had a right to stand his ground and that he was actually scared of a strange white man in a pick-up truck following him. But nope, it was only Zimmerman who was reaonably afraid after following, approaching, pushing and then getting bested. Nope, being how Trayvon was black, no way he could have been “reasonably” afraid of a grown man following him at night in Central Florida, am I right?
he was so scared of trayvon and so reasonably in fear of him that he got out of his car and pursued him.
i mean, it doesn’t even make sense from a layperson’s perspective. the police fucked up by letting him go home with the gun.
the end.
I lost a very angry post about this:
“In the Bobbitt case a woman was attacked in her bedroom by her husband and she shot him. She wanted to argue self-defense, but the Florida Supreme Court wouldn’t let her. Why? Because she could have retreated. It is precisely that kind of injustice that the Florida law was changed to address.”
In an slightly calmer mode: First, the situation you describe in the previous paragraph of being confronted in the dark and shooting someone because you think he has a gun is very very scary indeed. Oooh, it sent shivers down my spine. So scary! I got the shakes, thinking about the idea that I could shoot a guy with the best intentions in the world and then find that I was on trial because I’d made a mistake.
Of course, it is also scary to think of yourself, or a loved one being shot by someone else, who mistakes a cell phone for a weapon, or claims he did so that he does not have to go to jail. The expression, “I’d rather be judged by twelve than carried by six” may be out of date, but it still makes sense. The way to remove ambiguities in the law of self-defense is not to change the law so that if you say the right magic words, you get a walk on killing a man.
Secondly, in re Bobbit: You are the third or fourth person I’ve seen come up with the idea that this is about protecting women. Briefly: a castle law and an SYG law are rather different animals. IIRC, the castle doctrine was in place in Florida in 1982, but was interpreted in light of the fact that the attacker was also a resident in the home. I could be wrong on this. Either way, this abomination of a law was certainly not passed to save poor women who were being prosecuted for shooting their abusive husbands.
Of course, it could be quite useful to those husbands. Let’s imagine: a man starts yelling at his wife, he threatens her, she shoves him, he shoots her dead. It was self-defense. Take away the body.
Bleah!
Ok Aaron Worthless… The facts are… Trayvon was being FOLLOWED and had that idiot not FOLLOWED him and just let the police come… NOBODY would be dead or have a broke nose or anything… Trayvon would have went back home and this would have been another one of Zimmerman’s FALSE ALARMS… (you do know about that don’t you?). But because this piece of shit was out looking for trouble…(as history shows) an innocent and yes I said INNOCENT teen was MURDERED because of it.
while this is all very interesting from trial standpoint, zimmerman should have been arrested and an investigation should have been conducted.
there was probable cause for it.
the end.
I suspect that at some point Trayvon realized this guy was going to keep following him, turned, and confronted him. I think most teenage boys would eventually try that, out of fear and bravado.
What happened after that, we may never actually know, except that Trayvon’s dead, and Zimmerman’s not.
If this witness wants to speak alongside the other witnesses in court, that would be fitting and proper. To do this, of course, we’re going to have to get everyone into court, by arresting Zimmerman, and allowing him to make a case for why and how he shot an unarmed teenage boy, whom evidence strongly suggests he was following against police directive when the altercation began.
Now: do I also get to pick a ‘black’ name to use here, to try to make people think my opinions are more authentic? I mean, if Jamal gets to, I think it’s only fair.
Again.
Any person being STALKED, is to try to evade, if that is impossible, confront. If the STALKER becomes violent the victim SHOULD do as much damage as possible and then REPORT.
There IS a 911 call FROM Trayvon. He followed the rules, Zimmerman DID NOT.
Horrendo
> but, jeez, the guy followed Martin.
Following doesn’t justify violence by itself. There is no law that requires me to go the opposite way from a suspicious character.
CW
> After being TOLD NOT TO.
Actually, he was told he didn’t need to do that. It was not an order.
Princ
> Love it when these folks just ignore that Trayvon also had a right to stand his ground and that he was actually scared of a strange white man in a pick-up truck following him.
I’ve done nothing of the sort. It could very well be the case that Trayvon got reasonably concerned and attacked Zimmerman. It would depend on the facts, and I wasn’t there. If no shooting had occurred and we were just looking at a battery case, Trayvon might be able to assert self-defense, even if he threw the first punch. What this could be is a case of cascading errors. Zimmerman erroneously thought Martin was up to something. Martin wrongly thought Zimmerman meant him harm and attacked him. At some point in the fight, Zimmerman wrongly thought Martin was pulling a gun. Each mistake reasonable and human, resulting in a tragedy but not a crime.
ABL
> he was so scared of trayvon and so reasonably in fear of him that he got out of his car and pursued him.
The controlling issue in terms of his fear is the moment just before Zimmerman fired. That is the moment when you ask if his fear is reasonable. He could have believed he could handle the kid, and gotten surprised. I will remind you again there is strong evidence that at some point Tayvon had him on his back. Do you think he expected that when he chased him?
And by the way, in this respect Florida is not, contrary to what you heard, radical. It is actually pretty ordinary. The majority of states follow this so-called no retreat rule that actually does require retreat under certain circumstances. So there is a better than average chance that each of you live in a state right now where the law is the same. And rather than being a scary new trend by the NRA, it is in fact the traditional rule and the broader retreat rule is considered the “modern” trend.
> i mean, it doesn’t even make sense from a layperson’s perspective. the police fucked up by letting him go home with the gun.
Except they didn’t. That’s on my site, too. They kept the gun, at least for a time. I don’t know if he has it, but given the fact that the New Black Panthers have put out a bounty on his kidnapping and spike lee tweeted his home address, I hope for his sake he has a gun.
Mika
> Of course, it is also scary to think of yourself, or a loved one being shot by someone else, who mistakes a cell phone for a weapon, or claims he did so that he does not have to go to jail. The expression, “I’d rather be judged by twelve than carried by six” may be out of date, but it still makes sense. The way to remove ambiguities in the law of self-defense is not to change the law so that if you say the right magic words, you get a walk on killing a man.
Um, there is no way to remove that. I mean seriously suppose a man points a gun at you and you draw first and fire. And then you find out it was unloaded. Tough? You go to prison? Is that the rule you want?
As long as human beings are involved there will always be mistakes.
And I would add this. The rule in self-defense is the same with the defense of others. So a man points a gun at your son, or your daughter, or your spouse—just name someone you love—and you don’t know if he will kill them for sure, but you have the means to stop him or her, with a gun. Are you going to take that chance?
A strict rule that says that if it turns out the danger was not real, you go to prison is arbitrary and capricious. It means you go to prison not for bad intent but for bad luck.
Seriously, I think much of the left thinks that the only people who should ever shoot a gun to defend human life is a cop. But the problem with that is… what if that cop is a racist? Or corrupt? Or lazy? Do you want to put your lives solely in their hands? Or do you want to be able to defend your own family?
> Secondly, in re Bobbit: You are the third or fourth person I’ve seen come up with the idea that this is about protecting women
Because that was part of the thinking, and I have helped women in abusive situations so that resonates with me. Once the castle doctrine was negated by the fact that it was his home too, they imposed a duty on her to retreat even though he was the aggressor. That is wrong.
Makes
> had that idiot not FOLLOWED him and just let the police come…
You do know that Zimmerman successfully stopped several burglaries in his neighborhood, right?
@Aaron Worthing
You’re using logic and these other people are using their emotions. You’re wasting your breath trying to explain it. Their emotional bias won’t ever let them think the way you do.
The fact is, like Aaron said, anyone passing any kind of judgement on this is an idiot. There isn’t enough evidence either way. Walking in the same direction as someone isn’t illegal. Here’s the 2 scenarios as I see it.
Zimmerman follows Trayvon Martin. Trayvon gets scared/exerts his teenage bravado and starts a fight. Trayvon is winning (witness said zimmerman was the one on bottom) and Zimmerman starts to fear for his life and shoots the kid.
Now scenario 2. Zimmerman follows Trayvon Martin and tries to detain him and a fight starts. Trayvon is winning (zimmerman on bottom), Zimmerman fears for his life and shoots him.
In the first scenario, Trayvon is guilty of assault. In the second, Zimmerman is guilty of assault. But in BOTH cases, if Trayvon really was beating Zimmerman so badly that it was life threatening, he deserved the shot.The key thing here is how much force was Trayvon using and was Zimmerman really in fear of his life? I don’t think these questions can really be answered with the available evidence. Look past your bias and realize that the FACTS available can not lead you to a proper, well informed judgement. Vouching for either one of these people is just your opinion talking out of your ass.
How about we move past this and ask “Why weren’t the cops there faster?” I’m tired of seeing police every 5 seconds on the highway, waiting to write me a ticket. They should be actively patrolling neighborhoods like the one this occurred in, not jerking off with their cop buddies talking in a parking lot. If there was an active patrol that could have responded to the 911 quickly, these 2 never would have even met. But hey, I guess stopping a killing doesn’t make the police department/city any revenue, so why should they care. It’ll just cut into their donut time. Cops need to do their fucking jobs.
look, i understand that you’re trying to get folks to go read your blog, but it’s customary to back up your points with actual links to evidence supporting your statements. i’m not going to wander around your blog looking for evidence to support what you claim is true.
are you an attorney? in law enforcement? why should i give any credence to what you say the law is?
“Um, there is no way to remove that. I mean seriously suppose a man points a gun at you and you draw first and fire. And then you find out it was unloaded. Tough? You go to prison? Is that the rule you want?”
Um, seriously, suppose a man stalks your teenage son for blocks, and then shoots him. And then he walks, because he says he was scared of your kid. Tough? He doesn’t go to prison? Is that the rule you want?
The problem with the ‘what if’ is that the what if already happened. And you’re talking very hard to make Trayvon Martin collateral damage of someone else’s, perhaps my white ass’s, need to make sure that if I have to make a tough decision in the dark someday, there is NO chance I will do time for killing someone else’s son.
Sorry, I’m an adult, and I actually take responsibility for what I do with my guns.
Aaron – are you even familiar with the affidavit from the girl on the phone with Trayvon? She said Trayvon was pushed! But nope, let’s place more weight on the person who saw the middle of the fight and not the actually person on the phone with Trayvon when the confrontation started. Yep.
(citations needed)
I’m totally starting to do that now because it’s just the perfect blog device.
About the Duke Lacrosse case and the rush to judgment. Sorry I realize this is not about Trayvon, but I must speak up as a native Durham, North Carolina resident of 51 years. Yes, it turned out that those guys were innocent of the charges, and I don’t claim to speak for all Durhamites or even all those in the black community, but I can speak for many of those that I know. Historically, the Duke name is very prominent in Durham….Duke University, Duke Medical Center, Duke Energy, etc. etc. etc. and there are many landmarks and streets here in town with the Duke name. .Duke is a MAJOR employer here in town and I and many of my relatives were also born at Duke Hospital.
That being said, Mike Nifong was the well respected and long time District Attorney here, and it never crossed our minds that he would risk his career and go up against Goliath with no evidence to support the charges…..and especially not over a (1) black woman who was (2) a stripper and who had a (3) troubled background. I can’t begin to express how flabbergasted and incredulous we all were when it became obvious that he was basically firing blanks….so much so that some still believe that there was some kind of payoffs to make any evidence disappear. I also admit that it turned ugly here and many black women were dismayed by the thoughts that even the investigation of a possible rape of a black woman by whites males was not worth the effort.
Aaron, I can’t believe you just stated that Trayvon “deserved the shot” if he was beating Zimmerman. You are right…we are emotional because we are human and can imagine the fright this CHILD may have felt when faced when confronted by an older adult that outweighed him by 100 pounds, and packing heat.
Un-freaking-believable.
You’re assuming that Zimmerman confronted him at all. What if Trayvon approached him instead? Even if he felt scared that someone was following him, its not right to start a fight with someone over it. All I’m saying is that you don’t have any clue who started the fight…no one does, and no one probably will.
Good grief, c’mon Clyde do you realize the double standard YOU just made with that comment
“What if Trayvon approached him instead? Even if he felt scared that someone was following him, its not right to start a fight with someone over it. ”
So it’s OKAY for Zimmerman to start an altercation b/c he felt threatened by Trayvon, despite the fact it was ZIMMERMAN who pursued Trayvon on foot (after getting out of his car)! I mean seriously, my god man! What a bunch of double standard BS, I’m so sick & tired of crap like this, the damn double standard in this freaking nation. Trayvon was walking home, on the phone with his girlfriend, minding his own business. Zimmerman was the one who decided to start this by pursuing Trayvon when he had no good reason other than the fact he applied a stereotype to a black male. I don’t blame Trayvon for defending himself, even if he throw the first punch to get the guy who was following him, in an aggressive manor off his back. Especially if that follower is twice your damn size & you know you were DOING NOTHING WRONG!
ok, now you’re just being ridiculous.
How is it ridiculous? You seriously think after being followed for some time, you wouldn’t turn around and say “Hey, why the fuck are you following me?”
In that way, Trayvon would have been the one to approach him. I also implied that he could have been the one to start the fight over that, but so what? Anything is possible…unless you’re so locked in the “reality” of the situation that you’ve decided happened that you automatically disregard any other possibilities.
It’s hard to be objective when so many of you have already taken sides. Unlike most of you, I haven’t passed judgement on either of these people. I’m merely trying to discuss what really happened (actually I was semi trolling, but I’m serious now). It’s not a “game” where we choose sides and try to out do the other, as most of you are making it out to be. We’re talking about 2 peoples lives here. I’m not saying that this happened in any way, but what if Trayvon just flipped out and attacked Zimmerman, and then Zimmerman was sentenced to life in prison, which in this case he doesn’t deserve. If Zimmerman really did murder him, Trayvon deserves justice. They both deserve you looking at this without the bias you’re showing.
Here’s what I think is what most likely happened. Zimmerman followed Trayvon and probably called out to him. Given that he said “coons” on the tape, I’m assuming what he said wasn’t very friendly. Something like “What the fuck are you doing here you fucking coon? Are you looking to start something?” Trayvon, being your typical teenager, probably responded in an equally aggressive manner. Equally likely is Zimmerman tried to detain him (in which case Trayvon has the right to respond with deadly force). Anyway, from those words, a fight likely broke out. The key here is who threw the first punch. Unfortunately, no one saw the beginning of the fight. In my opinion, Zimmerman will not go to jail for this because there’s just not enough evidence to prove without a doubt that Trayvon did not throw the first punch. Unfortunate as it is, that’s most likely what’s going to happen.
Of course, “vigilante” justice may be in order for Zimmerman at the hands of many angry black folks (ironic on 2 fronts here) if this happens.
the ridiculous part is any claim that zimmerman can claim self-defense after pursuing the kid.
also this?
is exactly wrong. in fact, if trayvon was in fear of bodily harm from zimmerman, he had a right to defend himself.
you don’t have a right to chase after someone and then claim you’re defending yourself against their attacks. under your theory of self-defense, the self-defense clock resets after every punch or every perceived grievance. “yeah, i punched him first, but then he punched me and i shot him because i was defending myself against that punch.”
it’s idiotic.
stop it.
uh, no it’s not. the key is that zimmerman pursued trayvon after being told not to, thereby initiating the confrontation. he was the aggressor. period.
stop trying to set the self-defense clock so it always favors zimmerman. it’s transparent and idiotic.
stop it.
“Even if he felt scared that someone was following him, it’s not right to start a fight with someone over it.”
Wait, I thought it was legal to SHOOT someone over it. Isn’t that what got us into this mess?
precisely.
Clyde Cash Logic:
Zimmerman confronted Martin: Martin should have said to the armed man pursuing him, “A fine evening, dear sir. I was out to legally secure refreshments from the local general store. I hope I haven’t offended you by doing so. If so, please accept my humblest apologies. Though I daresay I have done no wrong, I shall yield to your authority. Feel free to frisk me and detain me until the police arrive. I will kindly corroborate any statement you make about me to the police. Thank you for your vigilance, kind neighborhood watchman”.
Martin confronted Zimmerman: Shoot the f*cker now before he kills you!
1st off for this whole “thug,” thing, that’s just a piss ass excuse racist white people (aka those who are socially conservative, I don’t see liberal white people acting like this) to hide their racism. “Oh I’m not racist, it’s that rap music, that tattoos etc.” Well MLK didn’t rap, wear tattoos, neither did Medgar Evers. Yet the 20-30 something year old white men back then who hated those guys, now in their old age still hate MLK, Evers now Obama, myself & any other black person. So don’t let that “oh it’s not the skin color, it’s the music etc.,” crap people say fool you.
Now onto this Trayvon Martin case based on evidence we have from Trayvon’s girlfriend, witness that have come forward so far & the 911 recordings my thoughts on what took place (btw it ends up to being Trayvon was the one defending himself, Zimmerman was/is the aggressor):
1. Trayvon was walking back to his father’s fiancé’s house from 7-11
2. Zimmerman (who based on other evidence dislikes blacks males) called 911 to report a “suspicious” looking person. (911 recording have been played over & over in the media)
3. Trayvon tells his girlfriend over the cell phone he think he’s being followed by some guy. His g/f tells him to run, he say no he’ll just walk faster. (so Trayvon knew something was up & given how most people may act in that situation probably began to mentally put himself in a self defense mode, I know I would)
4. From 911 phone recordings cops tell Zimmerman not to pursue the guy, but he does anyway. Additionally from the 911 record Zimmerman sounds to be short of breath, so likely he’s either walking fast or maybe running to catch up with Trayvon who by now, based on the conversation he was having w/his g/f, is now walking faster or perhaps running since he’s being followed for no good reason at all by Zimmerman.
5. Zimmerman approach Trayvon asking him “what is he doing here?”
6. Trayvon’s g/f says there was the sound of “pushing,” a sound as if Trayvon’s headset hit the ground
7. Then we have the “altercation.”
Now the question is what happened during the altercation. My opinion is Zimmerman pushed Trayvon, then as most people would do Trayvon fought back to DEFEND himself! Accounts were Zimmerman had a bloodied nose which would be expected if someone is punching you, to get your aggressive self off of them! I don’t blame Trayvon for possibly trying to break Zimmerman’s nose. I know in a situation like that to defend myself I’m going all out. In other words make sure once I get my attacker (Zimmerman) down he can’t get up to attack me again. So if Trayvon had the edge at one point during the tussle yea it’d make since if were able to gain ground on Zimmerman & get on top of him, try to make sure he can’t get up to chase him down again. Still self defense on Trayvon’s part in my book.
Now perhaps that push wasn’t Zimmerman pushing Trayvon, but Trayvon throwing the first punch? Well, given Trayvon knew he was being followed, once Zimmerman came up to him to confront him, I’m sure he knew there was a good chance something was going to go down. I’m a tall guy, but I’m skinny, I don’t have any power behind my punch’s (never been in a fight). If I’m in a situation where a bigger guy is following me, then confirms my suspicious by calling me out verbally, potentially getting in my face, my thoughts will be “okay something physical may happen.” I’ll tell you I may be thinking, I can’t beat this guy if he comes at me, let me throw the first punch, try to surprise him, hopefully get him down so I can get away. So perhaps Trayvon did throw the first punch to start the tussle. In my opinion, while I know throwing the first punch usually makes someone the aggressor, in this case it doesn’t to me. Trayvon knew this guy was following him, obviously was concerned hence increase his walk to get home, so HE felt threatened. I can see him figuring I’m going to get the upper hand on this guy, not wait for him to attack me, let me start my defense now by trying to catch him off guard. Remember, Zimmerman pursued Trayvon, had Zimmerman stayed in his car he wouldn’t have “felt threatened,” or whatever the hell he felt. The only one who needed to feel threatened was Trayvon, he was the one minding his own business then being followed by Zimmerman (who already had his mind made up before he met Trayvon, Zimmerman is a racist a-hole).
One thing I want to know did any of these witnesses view this entire incident? If not then only Zimmerman & Trayvon (who can’t talk from himself now) know all of what went down. When this new witness account says Trayvon attacked Zimmerman, did this witness miss what started the altercation & only happened to come across this incident when it was already in the middle of going on (when Trayvon had the upper hand, Zimmerman pinned down).
I’ll end with this for racist white people who are tired of blacks, minorities in general. WE’RE NOT GOING ANYWHERE! Deal with it. You have a problem with non-white people, then just drown yourself in the bathtub! Hey you’d get to see Jesus quicke….oops forgot suicide equals hell. Well, that be better anyway!
Oh, and there’s also the fact that Zimmerman has a history of falsely claiming he was attacked when he was the aggressor:
https://twitter.com/#!/keithboykin/status/183907003658272768/photo/1/large
This is a long comment. I apologize in advance for its length. TL;DR: The witness and Zimmerman are bullsheisse. I posted at the racist cesspool that is the MyFOX local news site, where the story of the witness originally ran. The site only allowed me to post the following in chunks and, even then, only some chunks would post to the comments. It was a fruitless exercise. Anyway, I’m re-posting the comment here in full.
_____
It seems that the witness’s statements to the reporter are neither self-consistent nor corroborative of what we know George Zimmerman told the police.
[1] Looking at Zillow and Bing, can give you a picture of the layout and appearance of the apartment/condominium complex at 2831 Retreat View Circle Sanford, FL, where the shooting allegedly took place. The front of the apartments/condos there are painted a yellowish beige and have brown trim around the windows and doors and brown shutters. The rear is painted in the same color, with a slightly darker beige trim around the windows. The front points to the street, naturally, and the rear points to a grassy “courtyard” that is divided by a path separating two parallel sections of the complex.
[2] The reporter pointed to a rear window as being where the witness claimed to have looked out and seen the altercation between Martin and Zimmerman. Looking at the video, it can also be seen that the courtyard area was taped off, after the police had arrived, suggesting that the shooting occurred in or around the courtyard. Indeed, the police report states that the body of Martin was found in this courtyard area.
[3] The witness said that he saw Martin attack Zimmerman. Did the witness happen to be looking at the courtyard at the exact moment Martin allegedly attacked Zimmerman? What brought him to the window? Was there a commotion that drew his attention? It was dark and raining. Did he see the alleged attack clearly?
[4] The following, I think, particularly casts doubt on both the witness’s statements to the reporter and Zimmerman’s statement to the police. Zimmerman claimed that he was attacked after he got out of his vehicle to look at a street sign. This is odd because 2831 (or 1231 Twin Trees Ln., the other address cited in the police report) is not located at a corner or intersection where street signs are usually located. Secondly, if Zimmerman was looking for a street sign and was attacked after he exited his vehicle, why would the shooting have taken place in the courtyard, away from the street?
The witness claims he saw the fight occur outside of his rear window (see [2]), which would have been pointing at the courtyard. Again, why would Zimmerman and Martin have been in the courtyard fighting if Zimmerman was, as he claimed, attacked as he exited his vehicle in order to supposedly look at a street sign? If Martin had initiated the fight as Zimmerman exited the vehicle, the fight should have been began on the street. The witness could not then have seen the start of the fight from the rear window, which again faced the courtyard. I think this calls into question both the witness’s statements to the report and Zimmerman’s statement to the police.
[5] Witness said that he called 911 at the behest of Zimmerman, who was allegedly cried for help. The police report says that 911 was notified of shots fired around the location where Martin was eventually found. The report also mentions 911 calls reporting “a subject laying the grass”, presumably the body of Trayvon Martin. The report, however, is silent about any calls received notifying police about a fight occurring. Did the witness call to report a fight, as he indicated to the reporter, or a shooting? He doesn’t mention the shooting during the interview, only that he went to call 911 about the alleged fight and returned to find Martin face down in the grass.
Zimmerman’s statements to the police and the witness’s statements to the reporter both seem inconsistent, at least given what we know. As hard as the Breitards and their clones in the right-wing blogosphere try to make it seem otherwise, I don’t think the witness’s statements should be interpreted as being sufficient to exonerate George Zimmerman, particularly in light of Zimmerman’s own statements, which are themselves inconsistent. I don’t think his statements are as “instrumental” as this story makes them out to be.
________
A crime may or may not have taken place. That is for the grand jury to decide. If a crime is determined to have taken place, then it is for a jury to decide Zimmerman’s guilt or innocence. If he is as innocent as his supporters claim, then he will have no difficulty proving it to a jury.
Without the public outcry, it is doubtful that the judicial process would have even made it this far. Until then, the Sanford police were not even willing to acknowledge a crime had taken place. The judicial process, and any chance the Martins’ had at receiving justice for the death of their son, would have ended, not in a courtroom, but in the grass of that courtyard on February 26. Given the ambiguity of what occurred that night, given Zimmerman’s history, and most of all given that an unarmed child is now dead, Trayvon Martin and his family are entitled at the very least to this amount of judicial recourse. It’s sad that there is such a large group of people in this country who are intent on denying them even that.
Great comment. Thank you for doing the research.
Just to be clear the comments at MyFox were filled with racism, not the website itself. (I don’t know if Fox’s local affiliates share the same ideological leanings as their parent company. Fox 5 in New York, which I occasionally watch, seems not to).
This is the MyFox report that I reference above:
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012
Sigh. The ONLY thing that makes this a self defense case is that Trayvon Martin continued to beat the shit out of George Zimmerman once he was defenseless. Lying on your back crying for help(as was reported THE NEXT FUCKING DAY AND TOLD TO THE POLICE BY THE ONLY EYEWITNESS) makes Zimmerman defenseless, and Martin had an obligation to stop. When he didn’t, he became the aggressor in the eyes of the law, and Zimmerman was legally justified in using deadly force. It’s JUST like when the pharmacist in Arkansas came back and shot the robber he’d already shot, who was lying on the ground bleeding. You cannot use deadly force against someone who is no longer a threat. In this situation, Trayvon Martin placed George Zimmerman in a deadly position—no matter who started it(although it looks like Trayvon Martin came back to Zimmerman and beat the shit out of him).
Trayvon Martin was not the angel he’s been portrayed as in the media. He was a 6’3″ 165 pound athletically build MAN from the mean streets of Miami Gardens. He was visiting his father to “get his priorities straight”. Oh, and he had a mouthful of gold teeth.
http://i.imgur.com/ahztA.jpg
That is a young man who was up to no good and NOT on a good path in life. His school’s story about being suspended for as long as he was for “tardiness” reeks of bullshit. You don’t get out of school suspension for being tardy—that’s illogical. You get ISS for minor offenses like tardiness. You only get suspended out of school for serious offenses.
He is not worth all the concern the black community is giving him. He’s the kind of kid you should be ashamed of producing, not be embracing because he got shot by a Peruvian/Jew neighborhood watchman.
Wrong. If Zimmerman initiated the fight, either by assaulting Martin or by attempting to unlawfully detain him, he cannot shield himself by claiming self-defense.
If I come up to you in the dark out of nowhere, try to detain you against your will, and I happen to shoot you after you fight back against my attempt to detain you, I cannot claim self-defense.
“When a person, being without fault, is in a place where he has a right to be, is violently assaulted, he may, without retreating, repel by force, and if, in the reasonable exercise of his right of self defense, his assailant is killed, he is justified.” Runyan v. State, 57 Ind. 80; Miller v. State, 74 Ind. 1.
Whether Zimmerman was without fault is subject to debate and this is why a grand jury investigation or preliminary hearing is necessary. A crime may very well have occurred. Why not allow at least for that determination?
“Citizens may resist unlawful arrest to the point of taking an arresting officer’s life if necessary.” Plummer v. State, 136 Ind. 306.
“Where the officer is killed in the course of the disorder which naturally accompanies an attempted arrest that is resisted, the law looks with very different eyes upon the transaction, when the officer had the right to make the arrest, from what it does if the officer had no right. What may be murder in the first case might be nothing more than manslaughter in the other, or the facts might show that no offense had been committed.” John Bad Elk v. U.S., 177 U.S. 529.
These cases apply to officers of the state. However, it’s not hard to see how they would apply to civilians who attempted to make an unlawful arrest. After all, civilians are granted very limited authority to make arrests. And, even then, “citizen arrests” are not made on behalf of the state. What Elk and Plummer speak to is a person’s right to resist an unlawful arrest. If Zimmerman attempted to unlawfully detain Martin, he was within his rights to resist. Even without invoking the right to resist unlawful arrests, the self-defense argument runs both ways. If Zimmerman attempted to detain him, Martin may have had a legitimate fear for his life. Fighting off Zimmerman may have been a reasonable application of force in self-defense.
—
I read the witness’s statement to the reporter. (We do not know what, if any, were his statements to the police). The call to 911 was, according to his interview, in regard to two men fighting. He does not mention gunfire in the interview. The report only mentions calls reporting gunfire and a dead Trayvon Martin and Zimmerman’s initial call. 911 calls reporting a fight, which should have been received between Zimmerman’s call and the calls reporting gunfire, were not mentioned in the police report. The witness in his interview does not mention gunfire.
Martin may or may not have been an angel, but he WAS minding his own damn business that night before Zimmerman decided he needed to make himself feel important. Or did I miss where in all your column furlongs of rationalization you acknowledge that fact?
Zimmerman had a gun. How for f*ck’s sake was he defenseless?! Despite Martin’s monstrous, superhuman strength, Zimmerman was somehow able to free his arms enough to reach for his gun and put himself in a position to use it effectively. If Zimmerman was able to do that, and had a gun in his possession, then it’s damn foolish to claim that he was defenseless. Zimmerman was not a frail eighty-year old women armed only with a walker. As delusional as you and the rest of your cohorts who’ve descended on this blog claim the Left is in regard to the shooting of Trayvon Martin, it seems you and the rest of Zimmerman’s supporters are ever more so. Zimmerman was not helpless. (And, FYI, it has not been determined who those cries were on the 911 tapes).
The ONLY thing that makes this a self defense case is that Trayvon Martin continued to beat the shit out of George Zimmerman once he was defenseless. Lying on your back crying for help(as was reported THE NEXT FUCKING DAY AND TOLD TO THE POLICE BY THE ONLY EYEWITNESS) makes Zimmerman defenseless, and Martin had an obligation to stop.
Absolutely wrong.
If Zimmerman shows a gun or even mentions a gun, Martin DOES NOT HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO STOP.
This is the biggest load of laughable horseshit I’ve ever read.
No kidding.
Helpless? Only if Zimmerman was unconscious. If he was still moving, even if he was still defending himself by warding off blows, HE WAS NOT DEFENSELESS.
For Christ’s sake. You’re pulling shit out of your ass and making all kinds of unwarranted assumptions (“not worth all the concern”? “up to no good”? How the hell, pray, do you know all this, genius?) and I don’t know you, but you sound like a racist asshole. Maybe you aren’t, but you sure come across as one. I will also say that the fact that Zimmerman had a gun sure seems like he was a threat as far as I can see it. So in wrapping this up, I’ll just say: Fuck off, dude. Now and forever.
Wow, “Luke Johnson,” just wow. So b/c this kid was from Miami Gardens, b/c he has gold teeth that automatically makes him up to no good. Yea there are those who wear gold teeth who are criminals, just like there’s those who wear tattoos that are criminals. But not everyone who’s “tatted up,” is a criminal nor is every black person who wears gold teeth a criminal. And have you been in every school system, you have no idea what different levels of punishment are applied for various incidents (fighting, tardiness etc.) But nice try to try & twist the facts as stated by the school to try & fit your dumb logic. But okay I’ll play w/your damn logic.
Given that throughout history it’s been socially conservative, christian white people who’ve been the most racist towards non-whites next time I’m walking around in the streets of VA to get food or whatever, I see an older white male 40 & over I’m going to feel threatened. Should they look at me funny as I walk by them I’ll defend myself okay, how does that sound. I mean even if I end up pursuing them, better to stop them before they can lynch me right? I mean obviously by your logic & others, I can apply the claim that all white people are socially conservative& are racist. I mean only fair, I mean if all black people wearing gold teeth, or a hoodie or are from Miami Gardens (& for criminals in Miami or anywhere in the planet it’s poverty that makes them susceptible to being a criminal not skin color) then all white people are socially conservative & therefore racist. I mean mean closed minded streets of rural-America (or the gated communities in the suburbs), so they have to be up to no good when it comes to how they view me, they think I’m suspicious, may want to shoot me. I don’t want them to snatch me up & lynch me on the street or something. I mean fair is fair right? Don’t get made at what I posted about social conservatives, I’m only being fair & apply the logic you used in your post.
Man I just have to come back to your ignorant post “Luke Johnson,” & btw since you like to make assumptions I’m making the assumption your a socially conservative fellow, your post sounds like it. But just to address just one part of your dumb post:
“Trayvon Martin was not the angel he’s been portrayed as in the media. He was a 6’3? 165 pound athletically build MAN from the mean streets of Miami Gardens. He was visiting his father to “get his priorities straight”. Oh, and he had a mouthful of gold teeth.”
Ummm if the widely portrayed 6’3″ 140 lbs stature of Martin as reported at the time of death were false, I’m sure the corner of Sanford would’ve come out & corrected that by now (http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/22/v-fullstory/2708960/trayvon-martin-a-typical-teen.html). And anyway someone being an athletically built man makes them a criminal automatically, so guess I better watch it next time I see some muscle bound white dude on a Harley all tatted up, he may be out to get me.
Also mean streets of Miami Gardens, do some research. From what I’ve been able to gather the area has been described as a working class area, aka one or maybe both parents work multiple jobs but it keeps them out of poverty & in the middle class. And Trayvon’s parents both worked! Here’s what I found on city data (http://www.city-data.com/city/Miami-Gardens-Florida.html). Not to say there’s not crime in the area b/c everywhere has crime, especially places close to large cities (be it Miami, LA, London, Moscow etc). Yea I’ve heard the area around Pro-Player (or whatever the stadiums the Dolphins play in now) isn’t upscale, BUT b/c something isn’t upscale w/large as mc-mansions doesn’t mean it’s trash. And even in an impoverished area doesn’t mean that everyone is a criminal. And again for those in poor areas who do become criminals it’s b/c of that poverty, not skin color. Go to damn Russia, minority population very low. I’ve seen a few shows on the Nat’l Geographic channels about foreign prisons, few times they shown Russian prisons, low & behold it’s nothing but white Russians in there. And ya know low & behold they usually tend to be from the poorest of Russian areas. Again poverty is more likely to have someone get caught up on the wrong side of things, not skin color. But alas I know that doesn’t fit w/the logic of socially conservative people in general (especially socially conservative white people). It wouldn’t allow for stereotyping of brown scary people.
Being told by racist which black folk we need to care about is god damn amusing to me.
Are that desperate to stop this movement from gaining anymore ground?
How come none of his teachers came out and said he was a bad kid? He had some tardies, and gold teeth, therefore he deserved to be stalked and shot like a dog in the fucking streets? And how do you know about the neighborhood he hails from, have you been there?
Dude, you are sick you need help, maybe some Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, prozac, something, get some help, ok
Henri—if you read his statement, the witness says he saw them fighting then ran inside to call 911.
See my reply above regarding the witness’s 911 call.
(citation needed)
So according to your logic Zimmerman wanted to just shoot the kid but first he had to convince the kid to break his nose so that it would look legit? That’s makes about as much sense as killing a baby in the womb and calling it “planned parenthood”
Idiot.
Martin a) sees gun,
b) is concerned he could be shot (because, after all, he was just minding his business)
c) tries to wrestle gun away from Zimmerman
d) bloodies Zimmerman’s nose in the struggle because Martins IS FIGHTING FOR HIS LIFE
e) Zimmerman shoots him.
Plausible, no?
Plausible until you come back to reality and remember that a gun is a ranged weapon. If he came to shoot first, he’d have it out already and just shot him before he got close to do anything.
Doubtful. I think the murderer thought that because he was larger than Martin he could just push him around, found himself somewhat taken aback by Martin having the nerve to defend himself, and shot him to preserve his illusion of manhood.
I’m not making an assumption, you are.
Try again. You’re not being particularly imaginative here.
Who’s talking about assumptions? If we are, then you’re assuming that Trayvon can dodge bullets well enough to get in close range. I’m telling you its a fact that a gun can kill out of reach of another human’s arms. If Zimmerman was approaching Trayvon with nothing but murder on his mind, he would have shot him dead as soon as he was close enough.
The events led to his death, but it sure as hell wasn’t a premeditated murder. You’re also assuming that Zimmerman approached him at all, or that his gun was visible. It could have been that Zimmerman asked him what he was doing there and Travyon just attacked him. Not likely, but what if Zimmerman instead said “Hey you little coon, what the fuck are you doing here? Looking to start trouble?”. Then Trayvon, being a normal TEENAGER (not thug…most teenage males would act this way), responded in a similarly aggressive way and it escalated from there. I really think that’s how it went down, but of course the real question is “Who threw the first punch?”. No one will ever know because there’s no witnesses that saw the beginning. Whether innocent or guilty, Zimmerman won’t go to jail for this because there’s just not enough *hard* evidence to prove that it wasn’t Trayvon who attacked him first. All the protesting and outcry won’t change it.
The events led to his death, but it sure as hell wasn’t a premeditated murder.
I said NOTHING about premeditation. You made an assumption.
You’re also assuming that Zimmerman approached him at all,
Nope. Just pointed out one possible action, one that could possibly have happened.
or that his gun was visible.
Yup. I pointed out a possible scenario, which fits the available facts, which would justify Martin using his fists on Zimmerman. You DID see the “plausible scenario” part of the post, no?
Oh, and actually, I think “who threw the first punch” is a lesser question than “who engaged in the disproportionate response?” Even under stand your ground rules, I think using a gun is a disproportionate response to a fist.
You’re getting a little “grammar nazi” over the assumption part. You can’t quote a future post to explain what a past post of yours means by the word assumption. It’s all assumption because neither of us were there. So let’s just drop that pointless arguing.
You’re right that it matters more who began using deadly force, but how can you prove that? No outside observer can observe when a punch begins to threaten someones life. I mean, you could probably say that any punch endangers someones life as it could cause enough trauma to kill. Anyway, its just not a realistic thing to argue. That’s why I think its more prudent to discover who actually began the fight instead…at least that can be witnessed by others.
Wow, the wingnuts must have Trayvon Martin on Google alert to pollute the blogs with bullshit
They were so fucking silent for all this time, but i see they got their script straight and going all over the blogosphere to spread bullshit
Zimmerman pursued Trayvon, when he was told not to, stalked him, confronted him, and killed him when he was losing the fight. So, according to the wingnuts, it wasnt Zimmerman’s fault for stalking him, profiling him, it was Trayvon’s for being black and in his line of sight, i get it now.
Do wes need pa-mi-shon to go som-whare, boss, Mista Charlie
This entitlement attitude fucking disgusts me – rationalizing shooting a defenseless Trayvon.
What just floors me about this is that these racist fools come here and try to sell their bullshit. We already know no one here will ever change their minds about anything – right-wing racist assholes are immune to persuasion based on fact. And what are the odds anything they spew could be factually-based enough to persuade anyone here?
They’re coming here just to be assholes. Must suck to be them and have that be a form of amusement, don’t you think? Pretty fucking empty goddamned life if that turns your crank…
I’m willing to bet my bottom dollar that this is the witness. It’s the only male 911-call (aside from Zimmerman’s call):
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/911/call2.wav
Witness: “Police I just heard a shot right behind my house”
911: “Where at?”
Witness: “Ah…”
[silence]
Witness: “They’re wrestling in the back of my porch.”
911: “You just hear one shot go out”
Witness: “It was either that or a rock at the window or something. I don’t know. The guy is yelling help. And I’m not going outside.”
…
The chronology of Witness’s 911 call and his statements to the reporter don’t correspond to one another. Witness told the reporter that he called 911 after seeing the fight and hearing Zimmerman call for help. The 911 recording indicates that Witness called to report a shot fired and two men in a struggle. During the call, Witness hears the man, perhaps Zimmerman, calling for help. This contradicts his statement to reporter wherein he claims to have called after hearing the cries of Zimmerman.
The witnessES said from the beginning that Trayvon had attacked Zimmerman. Zimmerman was defending himself against a brutal attack and everyone knows it. By the way, Zimmermoan is hispanic not white. It is just easier for the lame stream media to incite racial riots by saying he is white. Have you seen Trayvon’s most recent fb pic? Why are they using a picture of him when he was 12 yrs old?
(citations needed)
A brutal attack – yeah…frikkin Skittles. The witnesses said no such thing. If you listen to call seven the witness implies that the person that was shot is the person who calling for help! Listen to it. She is torn up because she believes she didn’t go out to help the person that was SHOT!
You mean the lovely ones of him dressed up for a school dance? Yeah, seen ‘em. Made me cry.
“Waaah, how DARE people portray the unarmed kid who was shot in a sympathetic light.”
And yay snoopie
I listened to this tape:
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/911/call7.wav
As a person who had someone murdered on their street in broad daylight, I can tell you the fear that you feel afterwards. Zimmerman not only killed Trayvon but he has terrorized that entire neighborhood. I was afraid in my own home for days just as this woman is.
For all of you who believe this is a racially motivated encounter, try the following litmus test: switch the races around by which Zimmerman is black and he shoots, allegedly in self-defense, and kills an unarmed Hispanic named Martin. Would you still believe that Zimmerman, a black man, is guilty of murdering a Hispanic for no other reason than being Hispanic?
Yay! Let’s play hypotheticals!!!!
Who needs reality when we can play the white denial game of Hypotheticals!!!
Oh, Lord.
This bait-and-switch manipulative claptrap bullshit argument reminds me of the climax of “A Time To Kill”.
“Now imagine she’s white.”
A person with common sense knows it doesn’t make a difference . Racism is racism. None of that reverse-racism bullshit people spout in this current “Post-Racial” upotia we all live in now.
Please pass the joint.
If he had a history of prejudice against Latinos similar to Zimmerman’s history of prejudice against black people, I’d believe it in a heartbeat much as the one Martin no longer has.
And even if he didn’t, he still followed an unarmed 17-year old and shot him dead. What’s so logical about that, Spock?
This question is moot. Had the situation been reversed the shooter would have been arrested immediately and we’d be awaiting the outcome of the trial by now. That is all people are asking for: an arrest and a fair trial for the shooter.
It is obvious from this site tht the only racists left in America are the black people.
[Now you're just being silly. You're gone. -ABL]
a liberal application of troll-b-gone has been applied.
How can people like this live with themselves? I’m not a violent guy; like the guy above, I’m tall but skinny, and I have also never been in a fight. But fuckwads like this asshole make me want to beat somebody with a nice piece of hickory.
Weak.
Fuck all you racist white people and mexicans on this website trevon didn’t do shit wrong white people have always portrayed thierselves as the victim race. Blacks don’t kill over a whistle[Emmit Till] and hoodies[Trevon Martin] fuck all you wet dog smelling crackerwoods and bean eating spics. My race has never done lynchings all you white muthafuckers are guilty thats why you hate blacks so much.
Wow, dumbest troll yet.
Uh… what?
this is one of those cases that gets more screwed up by the media as time goes by making a fair and decent trial harder and harder. I am not sticking up for either side but my god just get this to trial and stop making a media sensation of this
How about your stop trying to link-bomb?
[Comment deleted. Commenter banned for violating the 'don't act like an asshole' policy. -ABL]
Ok, I’m getting so fucking furious; sorry If I break your fucking ‘polite’ policy. I’m so infuriated by this cock sucking son of a bastard Zimmerman. I’m crying, my heart is broken, but I’d rip that son of a bitch murderer to shreds If he steps in my path!!! He deserves death! 1st degree murder is what fucking happened here!!!! It’s so goddamn clear hearing his fucking call to fucxking 911 that the piece of shit ran after Trayvon and while Tray called out, cried out (OMG that poor little boy…) out for help possibly attracting attention (which it did) that mother fucking cock sucker shot Trayvon in cold blood !! OMG I’m so HURT and FURIOUS!!!!!!!!! This mother fucker so clearly clearly committed cold blooded murder and the fucking police don’t do shit about it!??? Well we are the mother fucking people ,and we are going to fucking do something, ya and I am no racist but mother fucker that bitch sure the hell is and that prompted this piece of shit to do what the fuck he did, and so is not arresting that sack of lard for his crime!!!!!!!!! Fuck his piece of shit defense attorneys too!! Douche bags!!! Trayon, we love you son, we will not let this pass baby boy…we won’t.
I apologize for that post, I am just very saddened and dismayed over the tragedy of young Trayvons senseless murder, and everyone here at my home is tired of hearing my frustrations, so I vented here.
Realistically, and logically I believe that George Zimmerman was just itching to shoot someone, particularly a black individual.
Please review his 911 calls over a course of time. I believe he had no authority to ‘patrol’ the neighborhood, nor the authority to carry a weapon .
I believe that Zimmerman was a racist and thought he’d ‘send a message’ by slaughtering Trayvon. Because trayvon fled Zimmerman felt emboldened.
In hearing the 911 call, he is clearly told not to pursue Trayvon, but does so anyway. Trayvon begins to run and so does Zimmerman in pursuit of him.
I don’t believe there was a conversation, I believe Trayvon turned in disbelief and shock that he was being chased by a robber, a madman , and an obviously dangerous agitated person. I believe Zimmerman and he struggled for a bit Trayvon in an effort to free himslef from the tackle of Zimmerman and his hold., Trayvon cried out for help, loudly many times over.
I believe that when Zimmerman realized that Trayvons cries we probably heard by neighbors, he wanted to silence him quickly , permanently, and he did.
He shot him in cold blooded murder. The police arrived and remained on the phone for over 14 minutes with one distraught caller yet there was no effort to revive Trayon and it’s still unclear to me how long it took for an ambulance to arrive.
I saw a video of Zimmermans transfer to the police station for questioning and saw injuries to his face or head. I believe the police attempted to cover up this crime and aide Zimmerman in his efforts to escape justice. For all of this, I am very angry. Justice for Trayvon is Justice for us all. We shall not relent.
I saw a video of Zimmermans transfer to the police station for questioning and saw NOOO injuries to his face or head. I believe the police attempted to cover up this crime and aide Zimmerman in his efforts to escape justice. For all of this, I am very angry. Justice for Trayvon is Justice for us all. We shall not relent. (saw my typo up there almost saying I saw injuries to Zimmerman so here it is corrected. ZIMMERMAN HAD NO INJURIES TO HIS FACE OR HEAD. Phew, been a rough day~
Here’s a youtube of the new witness that says Zimmerman was on top:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYf2xTvJpzU
If Trayvon had been put in jail for possession of stolen property and a burgurly tool instead of just being suspended from school, he would be alive today!!!
[WTF is a "burgurly tool"? -ABL]
Good article, zimmerman needs to be arrested and locked up for good. I’m tatted up white boy and get looked at like I’m suspicious too. Although I’m an employee of a large financial institution. Sterotype is not a means to claim stand your ground, that is if YOU are the victim. Cearly, seventeen year old who was probably stoned and had the munchies was murdered out of cold blood by George zimmerman. Who was a ‘neighborhood watch volunteer’ and as indicated, ‘self appointed’. I find those details daunting, as that gives him no right to stalk and murder a minor.