[Update Below]
I’ve put off writing this post for days, and I still don’t have the words to express my disgust about the “rape analogy heard ’round the Twitterverse.” In case you’re not up to speed, long story short, I had a Twitter discussion with Marcy Wheeler about the NDAA; a Greenwald supporter quipped that if I saw Obama raping a nun on live TV, I would defend him for it; another supporter quipped that I would fantasize about playing the role of the raped nun; and Greenwald piled on. When asked to account for the clumsy rape metaphor, Greenwald doubled down, claiming that it wasn’t a metaphor, and that he actually believed that I and other Obama supporters would defend Obama if we were to see him raping a nun.
In what world is such a comment appropriate? It was a vile thing to say, and it is a vile thing to defend. Moreover, the stalwartness and cluelessness with which people, including John Cole, defended that statement is disappointing.
To be clear: I neither asked nor expected John to defend me. I can and do defend myself. But I was surprised and stunned that he stridently defended Greenwald when he could have, and should have, said nothing. Even worse, he managed to cast Greenwald as a victim. Stunning.
Both Greenwald’s comments and the comments offered in defense are incontrovertibly offensive to women, offensive to rape survivors, and are inexcusable. Does that mean I think Greenwald is pro-rape? Of course not. But using rape as a metaphor or leveraging it to score political points is tone-deaf, at best, and malicious at worst.
I’m without words to describe it any further, so I will simply direct your attention to this Chirpstory, a post by Zerlina Maxwell (“Glenn Greenwald defends ‘Obama could rape a nun’ attack on supporters“), and to a post by Joy-Ann Reid (“On bullying: Glenn Greenwald and the ‘nun rape’ smear”).
I am disappointed that my tenure at Balloon Juice is ending this way, and I will always be grateful for the opportunity John gave me to blog at Balloon Juice. But I must move on.
As such, I’ll see most of you around on Twitter, ABLC, and other cyberspaces. To the rest – to those overjoyed at my departure — I’ll see you in Pie Heaven.
UPDATE IN RESPONSE TO THIS APPALLING BIT OF DOUBLE-DOWN APOLOGIA:
John, I’m stunned that you continue to think Greenwald was using the remark as a metaphor or hyperbole. He expressly stated that he was not:
And perhaps you were not “laughing” at rape survivors, but you were mocking them in a public forum where women (including asiangrrlMN) were revealing their experiences with rape and that they found the comments offensive. Moreover, that men were also expressing concern likely means they have a mother, sister, daughter, aunt, or niece who has been a victim of sexual violence. You chose to ignore all of that. You could have said nothing. You chose to insert yourself. It was and is wrong. I didn’t seek nor did I want your defense. Your silence would have been sufficient.
And to those who think I overreacted or have a fragile lady-psyche, I’ll be sure to remember not to be so goddamn sensitive about rape in the future.
I’ve removed myself from the masthead. The celebration can officially commence.
-ABL
[cross-posted at Balloon Juice]
You are a classy woman. A pity Cole couldn’t rise to your level.
IMO we’re watching a microcosmic version of the 60s party realignment. A bunch of white so-called “progressives” are magically discovering their ronpaul states’ rights libertarian core roots, now that we have a black President. They are aligning themselves appropriately to this discovery.
Obviously this is on a much smaller scale than the 60s realignment, but the qualitative similarity is there nevertheless. They will be much happier in their new home. It remains to be seen if there are enough of them to yield a result analogous to the “you’ve lost the south for a generation” result of the 60s realignment.
Post also needs moar soup imo. :P
Who the hell is this freak, anyway? I’d never heard of him until like three weeks ago. The president raping nuns? Attacking ABL? WTF?
I am a rape survivor. Fuck you, you overprivileged whiny-ass late-to-the-progressive-party wastes of your mother’s birth pangs, Cole and Greenwald. Go hang together in your Pseudo-GOP-Libertarian Bro-Land. Those of us who have been fighting the feminist and progressive fights while you were still mindlessly touting your bullshit “AMERICA FUCK YEAH” know how to get along without your self-serving bullshit.
I haven’t been to Balloon Juice in a while and it’s like I’m on a case of anti-depressants. Never been happier about a decision. Bunch of jackals and they’re proud of it.
My post at Balloon Juice:
“Why do people keep saying that Greenwald was using a “metaphor”, or a “joke”, when he has quite specifically said that he is not, and that he means his “rape” comments quite literally?”
*Because it is a way to give that piece of shit Glenn Greenwald an out.
Greenwald meant what he said, but some people are too stupid to see it.
I’m sorry to see you go, ABL.
Good luck in the future.
I’m gonna miss Dennis G over there, but truth is I haven’t really visited BJ since the early days of Occupy etc etc.
Been an eye-opening two days, to be sure. Most who were present went this went down on Jan. 1st were in agreement that people would rush to defend Greenwald and excuse his comments. They definitely lived down to our expectations of them, didn’t they?
he just joined the twitters.
I am sorry about the flame war over at BJ, with Cole’s insulting of AsianGrrlMN and other rape survivors and he’s specious defense of Greenwald, I can no longer support the site.
What is Dennis G’s twitter handle?
Well, when you get into battle, its good to know now whose got your back.
How can you defend the fact Greenwald didn’t mean it as a joke, he actually believes that bullshit?
And then his fan, who so love to accuse us of being mindless robots, what do they do, try and take the bullet for him and fall on his sword to defend him, just like the cultist they are.
I’m sorry you had a fellow blogger just disappoint you like this as well with Cole, but its better to find out now and sever your ties once and for all.
And its also clear Joan Walsh could care less, and the next time she goes off the handle about the administration not caring for women, the chirpstory should be a reminder of she, like Athena, and when Poseidon raped Medusa, instead of speaking out, she joined the chorus just to keep being in the boys club and punished Medusa.
Brave against any perceived slight by the administration, but silent and dismissive when her staff engage in sexist and racist remarks.
Athena would be proud
Oh, Athena’s a great analogy. She was a mouthpiece for the Greek patriarchy to the point where a playwright used her to argue that fathers were more important than mothers when deciding whether Agamemnon’s children should receive divine retribution as punishment for attacking him after he had Clytemnestra killed. Gaining revenge for a mother’s death was seen as less valid.
Damn, I’ll miss you but I don’t blame you one bit.
Jumping in here to state complete agreement with Raven.
This means I have to make a point of coming over here to catch up, which will be no problem.
I’m sorry you’re leaving there, but I knew it was going to happen when I was watching that exchange on Twitter. The only reason I went back there was because of you and soonergrunt. A couple of months ago, someone asked me why BJ wasn’t on my blog roll. The reason was that I’d removed it months earlier because of John, and honestly, most of my looks over there haven’t made me change my mind.
Greenwald is a fool.
Hi ABL,
Sorry to hear that you won’t be at Balloon Juice anymore, but I suppose I’ll just read you here instead.
The thing that made Greenwald’s remarks seem over the line to me is that the G.O.P. is trying to define rape out of existence for the purposes of diminishing abortion rights. Ron Paul is not only not fighting the party elite on that issue, he’s practically leading the charge.
Supporting a Paul candidacy in these circumstances is actually pretty close to what Greenwald accuses Obama’s supporters of doing with respect to him.
Greenwald is the slimebucket that I always pegged him for. This is not surprising, although he hit a new low. So I guess he had to jump off the back of a cockroach to achieve that? Amazing…
I’m a survivor of sexual violence too, and one of the most hurtful aspects for me was when people I loved and trusted did not believe me. The whole experience of feeling like you have to prove that a wrong was committed is just horrible, horrible, horrible. Then there are those that try and excuse the violence–try and explain it away, try and blame the victim somehow. This is part of why so many choose not to report the crimes.
It has not escaped me that having to prove that the nun raping joke/metaphor/true comparison is offensive and degrading mirrors my experience post violence. Here we are again with far too many supporters of Greenwald denying that it was offensive, excusing and explaining it away, and then blaming ABL for somehow bringing this on herself because she has defended the President or because she has criticized Greenwald.
I am so sorry that you have had to go through this, ABL. You have my sympathy and my support.
That’s what kills me too, MomSense. I don’t expect any better from Greenwald — he’s essentially a sociopath. But Cole has written eloquently in the past about the need to shut up when people of color tell you something is racist, for example, and LISTEN to them. So for him to decide that sticking up for his internet buddy’s horrible analogy (or piling on of the original analogy, as it actually was) is more important than listening to people — many of them survivors of sexual abuse — who were pointing out that it was hurtful, is just disgusting.
But hey, some people can never get away from their Asshole-Enabling habits, personally and politically.
Me, three, Kerry. I am also a rape survivor, and while I found the original tweets to be offensive and sickening, it was the following rape apologia that really gutted me. It mimics the way our culture diminishes rape and normalizes what should always be shocking, disturbing, and horrifying. Oh, and as MomSense said, it demands that the victim “prove” her* experience to the listener’s satisfaction, which then hurts the victim all over again.
I have given Cole the benefit of the doubt many times as he did his “I’m an asshole, double down, oops, maybe I was wrong” routine, but I’m done.
@ABL, I’m really sorry that not only did Cole not have your back, he stabbed you in it. You deserve better than that. Onward and upward, indeed.
*generic her. Men are raped as well.
Me four, ABL. I’m too splattered to add anything coherent or valuable. Just that I feel you — acutely — and AsiangrrlMN and Kerry too — and share the sense of hurt and betrayal.
Yeah, I was done with John Cole’s whole I’m-an-asshole-and-Imma-dig-in-oops-maybe-not routine awhile back. I’m amazed at his capacity for being so obtuse. When you repeatedly hurt people and get excused by apologizing, you need to finally learn to keep from carelessly shooting your mouth off, or else folks will eventually stop accepting your apologies.
I love you and love your strength and your fight. ::hugs::
One thing about this seminal Presidency – cockroaches crawled from the woodwork on the Right AND the Left. The Left is misogynistic and racist. I call them out on it all the time. The more they froth at the mouth in denial, the guiltier they are. They know who they are.
I’m very sad and very sorry you and others had suffered such a horrible thing, and thank you for being brave to share it with us all.
There are certain lines you dont cross to win an argument, and he not only crossed it, he blew by it in a ferarri.
What makes it worse is how insensitive he was about it all, and when you thought a fellow female, Joan Walsh would drop the hammer, like Athena, dismiss the complaints and blame the victim.
Let us remember these people, these are not progressives, they should never be taken seriously, and anything they’re aligned with, to be boycotted.
I read you both here and at Balloon Juice. I can’t believe John decided to defend GG and even try to paint him as a victim. That just goes beyond the pale. And seeing the hateful trolls on BJ that just can’t wait for you to post something to aim their vitriol at, I have to commend you for staying there as long as you did. I’ll be taking a loooong break from that site and supporting you here, ABL.
I think you’re awesome. Keep your head up. :)
Dang Gurl. WTH was up with John Cole defending Greenwald? I used to think Cole was one of the ones who really got it.
ABL, keep your feet firmly planted and your head to the sky, your chin parallel to the pavement, and looking them straight in the eye!
Anywho, just for the record, I’ll defend President Obama unless it is proven he is a pedophile, murderer or rapist. Other than those three, he has my support and vote.
Dang gurl. WTH was up with John Cole defending Greenwald? Here I thought he was one of the ones who got it. I guess not.
Keep your feet firmly planted, your head to the sky, your chin parallel to the pavement, while looking them straight in the eye.
I have written to Salon demanding the public firing of Glenn Greenwald. (I know, I know, his mouth-breathing legions bring them page views, which gives them ad revenue…)
I’d encourage everyone reading this to do so. Putting such things on Facebook couldn’t hurt, either.
Let’s see about making it rather…unpleasant to be him.
Honestly, I expected better of John, but then again I’m not surprised. There’s a reason he’s not on my blog roll, and it’s because he’s had a bad habit of opening mouth and inserting foot when keeping the mouth shut would have been a better course.
The only reason I went back to Balloon Juice at all is because ABL and soonergrunt were there, but honestly? That reason is pretty much gone now.
I’ve never expected anything else from Greenwald. It’s his pattern, and it has been for years. He is absolutely blind when it comes to inappropriate behavior, and when called on it, he attacks the person for calling him on it – and usually ends up doubling down on it in the process.
ITA, Norbrook. Cole is a loose cannon. That’s the reason I never really went on Balloon Juice unless it was an ABL post. Now? Forget it. I deleted BJ from my blogroll because of this nonsense. I prefer to associate with people who are ADULTS.
As far as Cole goes, the saying that comes to mind is: “When someone shows you who they are, believe them.” He was not worthy of the loyalty you gave him, but that’s just my opinion.
I’ve always had a vibe that Greeny was a creepy dude. So it’s not shocking to me that he ended up dragging Obama into a rape fantasy, but it’s awful that you had to be thrown into it. I’m so, so glad you left BJ, though. After Cole’s awful performance on Twitter defending his mancrush, it would be so gross and creepy for you to have to continue to be there. I just hope that Kay and Ann Laurie don’t end up with the same treatment.
If it’s any consolation, remember that Cole’s last great mancrush was dubya.
I only read BJ because of your input and I’ve always hated the ire that was directed your way. Deleting that site from my bookmarks,. I also read you daily on Twitter and you always make me proud and often cause me to shriek with laughter.
There really are some very simple rules here:
1) Rape imagery and language are never fair game in any discussion that is not about rape. It’s part of what normalizes rape and makes rape a defining characteristic of American society.
2) In political argument, arguments can and should be made and defended. Vicious, ugly attempts to smear and/or wound your interlocutor do not = “argument.”
3) If one is friends with two people, and the first one viciously attacks the second, and (moreover) the second works under one’s roof — one supports the friend who has been unfairly attacked, and supports the person working under one’s roof.
4) When people are wrong, they should say so. I’m so, so sorry that Cole and Greenwald don’t seem to realize that.
I love reading your comments, Emily, because they sound like what I like to think I’d sound like — if I weren’t intemperate.
But yes — the point isn’t whether people dogpile on Greenwald or whether John Cole got his fee-fees hurt because people were “misinterpreting” his tweet. When you throw out something that trivializes/misuses rape as a way of making arguments about things that are NOT rape, esp. in a very public forum such as Twitter, you’ve fucked up. Full stop. Apologize. Own it. Do better next time. Don’t fucking double down on the dumb and hurtful, and for god’s sake, don’t turn it into “But I’M the victim here!” because people read what you wrote and correctly pointed out that what you wrote made you sound like an insensitive jerkwad.
Good call, ABL. I, too, am shocked that anyone, let alone John Cole would defend Glenn Greenwald in this matter.
ABL, Greenwald was absolutely in the wrong to agree with and extend the original awful comment from Dr. Dawg. I’m so sorry that you had that noxious bullshit flung at you and your integrity questioned, and that some people just can’t see how odious Greenwald’s actions were. There’s more heat than light over at BJ right now, so I really don’t know how this will sort out in the end.
Thanks everyone. I’m mostly hurt and disappointed. I thought Cole was a bigger person than he has revealed himself to be. I actually considered him a friend, which is why it hurts. Greenwald is an asshole. Cole should know better. I feel like he kicked me in the stomach in a callous display of “bros before hos.”
But I am happy to no longer have to deal with the trolls there and the endless nastiness directed my way, I much prefer my community here and it’s time to focus on my blog and my readers.
Onward and upward.
Ha, I just used “bros before hoes” too. And the self-pitying “You people just don’t understand meeee! It’s like high school!” post he’s got up now doesn’t exactly make things better.
During the original exchange, I tweeted him saying “the hole is deep enough. Stop digging.” It’s apparent from his self-serving “I’m so misunderstood” post that he doesn’t get it at all. Hey, I can be a complete asshole as well – there’s a long list of people who will sign affidavits to that – but I know the difference between that and stepping over the line.
Steady as she goes.
I’m sorry this happened ABL. I don’t care much for BJ so seldom visit that site but having a person you consider a friend turn on you is always painful.
Imo, Greenwald is a self-important, not too bright, windbag and this latest piece of caca is unconscionable.
“Rape imagery and language are never fair game in any discussion that is not about rape.”
I second all of the above, but Emily’s point really goes to the heart of the matter. Rape imagery and language are never, ever, ok — full fucking STOP.
It is absolutely mindboggling that anyone who isn’t a fucking Neanderthal would fail to grasp that simple fact; and that anyone who isn’t a fucking Neanderthal would respond to pig “Dr Dawg’s” original disgusting comment with anything other than a “WTF??”
A great quote in general about how to handle screwing up the rhetoric, from a Facebook friend of mine: “I think we are all schmucks. That is the price for being human. We can be schmucks who don’t care or schmucks who care, and say they are sorry.”
I’m so sorry this happened, ABL. You deserved better than that.
I started reading balloon juice again because I thought with you there they might reel back the misogyny a bit. Silly of me, I suppose, because they never do. They never do.
That remark about raping nuns is inaadmissable. The credebility of whoever said it or did not disavov it is impeached.
ABL, I’m not sure you are handling this right.
Greenwald acted like an asshole, which I suspect indicates that your substantive criticisms got to him. Everything blew up. But as far as I can see the net result is that you are losing a significant audience, in which I believe you were doing useful work, while he is (partly because of your quitting) able to ride this out as a storm caused by some minor blogger. I don’t think that needs to be how it goes down.
At Balloon Juice, you have prompted some important discussions, particularly about race and privilege. Inevitably, much of the yelling has been pushback, but I am hopeful that some of the people who yelled at you will begin to reexamine their positions. Very few if any are going to change based on their first or even tenth exposure to such concepts as that their own bubble might not represent the way other people (have to) live. But the drip-drip-drip method does work. I hate to see that process end over a tantrum like Greenwald’s. You can’t control him, but you do have control over your response. I’d like to see your outreach work continue.
best
pete
I personally think ABL is handling this just fine. No way was Greenwald’s comment even remotely OK in a just, fair and civilized society. And for Cole to stick up for that is just unconscionable.
When the audience and the owner of that blog are acting like its a good ole boys frat, whats the point.
You can fight the good fight, but when you keep getting insults and ugly, negative behavior thrown at you, you just have to leave the heathens be and let the dead be with the dead, you cant help them, you cant save them.
Not attempting to speak for ABL, as she is certainly capable of expressing herself, but…
It’s a matter of priorities and return on investment. Imani could continue to cross-post at BJ, and when she does, the commenters there reasonably expect her to wade into the comments and defend her position against critics. Some of the criticism is well-intentioned, but the vast majority of it, as with all highly-trafficked blogs, is “look at me I can type words and make them appear on the internet and now I’m just as important as you, here smell my poo!”
Or she can post here, where the commenter pool is smaller, but thoughtful, manageable and mostly civil, and invest her energy in making this site even better so that it continues to attract more readers who came here to hear the POV of Imani and her blogging team, of which I am proud to be a member.
In my opinion, Imani has gotten the maximum utility from the broader exposure BJ gave her, and the ROI on spending more time there has peaked.
This place is excellent for sharpening one’s own thinking, since you are likely to get thoughtful responses. BJ is valuable for spreading it. Twitter I am not attracted to at all. That’s my take. YMMV, of course.
But ROI? Donnez-moi un break from bizspeak! Seriously, in my opinion, that kind of language promotes a kind of channelled thinking that I believe is a real problem — admittedly off-topic in this important thread.
We all make decisions every day that involve the principle of return on investment, whether that return is measured in dollars and cents, emotional satisfaction, or the results of an election.
I’ll be writing much more in 2012 about applying such a thought process to prioritizing how you invest your time, money and energy in the thousands of political races that will be on ballots across the country in November.
I hope you find such posts worthwhile reading, and if you don’t, that’s OK, there will be lots of other content here. As you say, YMMV.
I’ll be interested to see how you try that. Some results are quantifiable but many are not, and the risk is confusing the categories.
Pete,
I’m sorry, but you’re wrong here. She didn’t pull out because of Greenwald’s tantrum. She pulled out because the site owner foolishly backed Greenwald. There’s a point where you have to say “enough of this,” and when I saw Cole tweeting that crap, I knew this was going to happen. This is on Cole, not on ABL.
“Big audience” is not a good reason to stay. I left Daily Kos two years ago, even though I was fairly regularly on the Recommended list, and had a pretty sizable audience there. Why? Because they’d gone down the poisonous “purity route,” and Kos was cheering them on. When I saw that, I knew it was time to leave. Yes, sure, I gave up the 2000 plus readers, etc. That was used by some people trying to persuade me to stay or return. But I’m a lot happier in my new home, and no, I don’t have to put up with the miscellaneous crap.
In terms of audience? Well, let me just say this – getting into a pissing match with Greenwald is a quick way to build your audience. It’s about the only good thing about it.
spot on. when i spent two days over there arguing with people that using the term “house niggers” to refer to congressional democrats, i knew it was going to be a rough journey.
bottom line, cole won’t moderate his comment section and it leads to absolute bedlam. there are a core group of people who act like total idiots on every single thread of mine. i came to grips with cole’s live and let live policy. but jumping in to defend greenwald when he had no dog in the fight? and then doubling down and claiming i’m making it all about me?
fuck that noise. i’d rather spend more time commenting here and building a community here than wasting 2 plus hours a night reading comments at balloon juice with my jaw on the floor. it’s just unpleasant. also, now i’ll have time to comment on other blogs that i used to comment on. new year, new shit! :)
“bottom line, cole won’t moderate his comment section and it leads to absolute bedlam.”
-That’s it.
Full stop.
I considered e-mailing him about it, but then I thought, “Why should I waste my time?”
“Maybe he’ll get a clue when the clowns over there tear his site down.”
Have you taken a look at Salon in the last several years?
Greenwald’s mindless followers utterly destroyed the place. Page views are apparently all they care about over there. And moderation was nonexistent.
I’d written them a direct “feedback” note, (not an LTE) telling them to fire the slimeball.
Like that’ll ever happen…
Unreconstructed PUMA and passive-aggressive concern troll John Walsh opened those floodgates in 2008 and now depends on GG and his angry cultists to run amok to generate page hits. If you dare question her on it or her responsibility in turning Salon into FDL2, of course she will be personally offended, clutch her pearls on the feinting couch, and play the victim. She’s done so in the past when anyone’s dared to call her out on her role in enabling that angry sociopath. GG will never leave Salon.
I think Cole just got tired of having to deal with GG and his flying monkeys, wrongly lashing out at ABL as the source of his misery.
The kitchen got too hot when John was tired and cranky (and probably drinking), and he couldn’t take the heat.
Yeah, I’ve been getting pretty sick of the new breed of trolls there, especially the vicious ones who joined after ABL arrived. The place has always been raucous as hell but still tolerable, though not any more. Not for me. I’ve just about packed it in for the place and moving on elsewhere. I had to do the same with DK back in 2006, ending up at Balloon Juice (had been reading it since 2005). DK was going to shit and the powers that be there were making it worse.
The problem here is that John isn’t doing crap and what little he is doing is dumb as hell.
Fair enough. You put up with an awful lot of crap, far more than I could or would have done, and it’s your choice.
I’m afraid that I am woefully uninformed on the entire fiasco. Between surgery and recovery therefrom and cobbling together some kind of holiday with my family, I pretty much stayed off the internet for several weeks. When I visited BJ yesterday, I quickly became aware that some kind of major upheaval had taken place, but I really couldn’t find out what it was all about on the blog. When I returned today to try to see if I could pick up any hints, I learned that you were gone, and you were one of the writers I most enjoyed. I’ll have to admit that I didn’t always have time to read the comments to your posts, so was unaware that people were making nasty comments.
I started coming to Balloon Juice because I was truly tired of the Obama-bashing that was being done by the my-way-or-the-highway (and I want it done yesteray) crowd (also known as the Purists, in my parlance). I let legislators and members of the executive branch (including the President) know when I am pissed off about something that they have done or said or supported, but I do it as an adult. And I also pride myself on being extremely well-informed on legislation and executive policy and action. I’ll admit that I’m very disappointed in John Cole’s management of the issue, and I think that you will be very much missed at BJ. I’ll be visiting you here and lending my support. I washed my hands and my mind of Glenn Greenwald a long time ago, and I’m frankly not surprised at his crass and irresponsible use of rape to scream out his pointlessness. I’m very sorry that John Cole supported him, because it puts the reasonable and insightful things that Cole has written into a very different light. I start to wonder: “Who is he, really?”
Good luck and may the universe bless you in your continued work.
I’ve read you here and at BJ, I’ve tweeted with you (I used to be caribbeanscot), and I honestly can’t believe the whole Charlie Foxtrot that came of this.
Overall, I’m sorry that’s how your tenure there came to an end. I may not always have entirely agreed with what you wrote, but you brought issues and views to the forefront that I hadn’t considered, and you most definitely deserved better treatment from Cole.
So . . . guess I’ll be hanging around here a lot more often in the immediate future. Sounds like you’ve generally got a pretty good crew around you. At least that’s something in your corner.
(And – I hope – needless to say, I found the original comment that sparked this entire argument a ridiculous piece of offensive bull.)
I’ve removed Balloon Juice from my bookmarks.
Aw, ABL, don’t quick Balloon Juice. You are an indispensible part of that community. I still come to your blog directly all the time, but I’d hate it if you weren’t part of the team over there any more. I know it’s easy for me to say, but …
You made the right decision, ABL. BJ will no longer be a site I visit.
#LandslideOBAMA2012
Sorry, but I don’t think your response is effective. Greenwald’s argument is that by endorsing Obama you also endorse the increased killing from drone attacks etc., which Obama has ordered. If you can endorse such killing of innocents (by supporting Obama) you could also endorse all sorts of other horrible things (rape) if done as the result of an Obama policy decision. The argument may be offensive, but the way to counter it is to argue that a vote for Obama is not an endorsement of what you (may or may not) consider bad policy decisions. Screaming about denigrating rape victims is not only not effective (you’re not addressing his point, he’s not denigrating rape victims, he’s making a serious challenge to Obama suppporters – how do you support a leader whose policies re Afghanistan/Pakistan are killing innocents?), it calls to mind the worst of the far right in support of Bush. This was Cole’s point. The Right would always avoid the real questions about the legitimacy of the Iraq invasion and wrap themselves in the flag and claim opponents were spitting on the troops. You can make a better argument, please do so.
This…is going to be “interesting” – and in fairly short order.
Go defend Greenwald elsewhere.
He is not making an effective argument. Greenwald is just a piss head who has been in a snit lately because his hypocritical dribbling about Paul finally got pushback. He is not used to anything but the bowing and scraping of the Salon crowd. Greenwald’s overbroad hatred of Obama is not rational and it is not some heroic effort to educate the unwashed masses. Spare me the Greenwald fanboy crap.
Well, I guess it’s up to us, huh? Seriously, you and I cannot leave it up to ABL to do all the work. I asked her to in my comment above! And she, not unreasonably, decided against.
I’m at work right now, so have limited time, but on the Afghanistan/Pakistan issue: Obama’s policy was always wrong, in my opinion, but it was clearly stated and he followed it, so I felt constrained from criticizing too much for the first year or three. At a minimum, it now deserves an update. With luck, that’s an opportunity.
(Edited to add: I got distracted by work before hitting post and had not seen the two responses above, which I think misunderstand Dave’s point. As I saw it, he was all about effectively criticizing, not agreeing with, Greenwald.)
Then you really don’t get it at all, do you?
Dude comes in here sticking up for all Greenwald’s “points” relative to everything under the sun while telling ABL not to criticize him for the rape-talk, and disagreeing with him is…what, then, exactly?
I didn’t misunderstand “Dave’s” post. I am just fucking tired of Greenwald’s minions flying in to prop up his sad ass “man of teh people” bullshit.
You may be right. I’ve been wrong before. However, I am genuinely interested in developing good arguments to move U.S. policy in a humane and peaceful direction. I suspect the President would find that helpful.
Hey Glenn…uh, I mean Dave, Do you truly believe that the military, under President Obama, is targeting “innocents”? Really? You think they sit around the War Room and discuss how they can kill innocent people? It would be one thing to actually say that innocent people are sometimes killed while our military is going after terrorists, but to imply that they are doing it on purpose or don’t care if it happens or “endorse such killing of innocents” is just fucking ridiculous and batshit crazy.
No sane person condones killing innocent people, and I suspect none of us are big fans of drone attacks of any kind, but unfortunately in the world we live in, with all the messes created by previous presidents and treaties and membership in the UN, NATO etc., — we have all that to live within.
I personally don’t like any of our military ventures, never have…under all the Presidents going back to Johnson, but I’m not going to live in a fantasy land where I am in denial that the shit exists. And I’m not going to take my ball and go home because the candidate I voted for has to play in that nasty field of international affairs that didn’t start in January of 2009.
I now see people who stand on the sidelines and throw potshots at both sides as lazy fuckers, taking the easy way out. If you want to change things, run for office or find someone who believes as you and help them run for office. Elect Democrats, pacifists, whatever…but get involved other than throwing potshots at people trying to change things. And if you think damaging President Obama or voting him out is going to help “innocents”, you are even more batshit insane than I previously thought.
Not even when Bush was President did the military “target innocents.” The US military goes out of its way to avoid it. Does it happen? Sure, but it’s not purposeful. We’ve been developing more accurate missiles and bombs for a long time, but bad intelligence, poor targeting, and just plain “oops” do happen. If the military wanted to, or didn’t care, you’d see a lot worse. Way worse. B-52′s carry a lot of bombs, and can basically wipe out anything in a pretty sizable area.
Amen.
The two are not related.
Arguing about Afghanistan/Pakistan and objecting to an inadmissable rape analogy are separate matters.
My own view is that bringing in rape is a deal breaker: you lose and I am done with you.
As to Afghanistan/Pakistan: OBL is dead, so the rationale is dead. It is time to calibrate a disengagement. Nothing good can come of doing otherwise.
I will stipulate that we all know that war is terrible and we must not get too fond of it. The issue is getting out of it, which is easier said than done.
You’re on to something, Dave.
IMO, the way to address it is to point out that during the run-up to the invasion of Iraq, there were a fuckload of us pointing out that:
1). Bushco was obviously making up shit in order to invade, and
2). Once we were in, we’d be in for a long ugly slog, and
3). Innocents would die, either in the invasion or its aftermath, and
4). Taking the focus off of Afghanistan was going to turn our efforts there into a long, ugly slog, too.
As we were saying this, what was going through Greenwald’s head? Well, in the preface of his first book ( http://www.bookbrowse.com/excerpts/index.cfm?fuseaction=printable&book_number=1812 ), this:
“During the lead-up to the invasion, I was concerned that the hell-bent focus on invading Iraq was being driven by agendas and strategic objectives that had nothing to do with terrorism or the 9/11 attacks. The overt rationale for the invasion was exceedingly weak, particularly given that it would lead to an open-ended, incalculably costly, and intensely risky preemptive war. Around the same time, it was revealed that an invasion of Iraq and the removal of Saddam Hussein had been high on the agenda of various senior administration officials long before September 11. Despite these doubts, concerns, and grounds for ambivalence, I had not abandoned my trust in the Bush administration. Between the president’s performance in the wake of the 9/11 attacks, the swift removal of the Taliban in Afghanistan, and the fact that I wanted the president to succeed, because my loyalty is to my country and he was the leader of my country, I still gave the administration the benefit of the doubt. I believed then that the president was entitled to have his national security judgment deferred to, and to the extent that I was able to develop a definitive view, I accepted his judgment that American security really would be enhanced by the invasion of this sovereign country.”
So while we were accurately predicting the future, Glenn Greenwald, hearing our arguments- including that, ya know, innocents, including babies would be killed, and that they’d be getting killed for a long time- Glenn Greenwald went, “Meh. I’ll leave it up to Bush.”
And when those of us who were right from the get-go choose to defend Obama, who inherited the long, ugly, baby-killing slog we warned of, Glenn Greenwald- who was amongst those who enabled baby-killing in the first place- tars US as evil?
Much thanks for sharing this.
Word.
I’m a longtime BJ reader, but I love your writing, and in terms of guiding the online conversation on the left, very few things are more important than calling out sexism and the like on our own side. I’m sad to see you depart BJ, but I’ll definitely keep reading your stuff here.
I don’t understand why so many generally decent, progressive people have such a blindspot when it comes to Glenn Greenwald. He’s obnoxious, conceited and intellectually dishonest. In most of his writing he completely forsakes analysis in favor of advocacy. Thank you ABL for everything you’ve done to smoke this narcissistic fraud out.
Hmmph true colors always come out on the wash.
I never went to BJ except to glance at the predictable poor-me/whiteness anxieties lobbed at ABL. I’m glad you left there, ABL.
They are writeoffs, not worth the effort.
1. I’m not sure why anyone would stake their name and rep on vigorously defending Greenwald’s right to be a self-righteous, condescending asshat when he’s really not that great of a blogger/legal expert in the first place. Many of his arguments have disintegrated in the light of scrutiny, he has a reputation for sock puppetry (making it plausible one or more of the trolls defending him and harassing ABL since them could actually BE him) and even his most celebrated case shows unethical conduct where the judge excused his behavior by suggesting he was just too incompetent to know better.
2. The biggest problem I have with this whole thing is when this all started, ABL was challenging GG to debate her on the issue at hand but instead of replying to her challenge, he chose to cosign a dogwhistling rape analogy instead.
Exactly! And one of the problems I have with people like GG is that they wish to pontificate without any challenge to their steaming caca. Give them facts, ask them to debate their position with any relevant facts and they and their mindless supporters turn into rabid wolverines, trying rip out your guts to string on the nearest tree.
Maybe I am just being simplistic here but others have said nearly the same thing. The issue here is not so much that GG is a prize goatfigger but that John Cole of BJ, a supposed friend and supporter of ABL went all in against her over a really nasty exchange on Twitter.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19267227
Seriously?
http://soc-neuro-onc.org/levin/Levin_ch26_p557-571.pdf
Thank you for your demonstration that you are not capable of being a good person, but hey, it’s not like anyone needed proof.
I only went over to Balloon Juice because I saw you started writing there. After reading John’s non-response to the issues you had, I’ll gladly never return. I can follow the writers I liked at their own sites that feature moderation to stop comment derailments.
(Let’s see if this takes; FYWP)
I’m disappointed in John, no lie. His takeaway from this seems to be “Leave Glenn aloooooooone!”, ignoring that GG’s modus operandi has been scorched earth pretty much since he started blogging; anyone who disagrees with him is, by default, evil. I’m more disappointed though that with multiple people–especially women–saying, “This was offensive, and this is why,” he’s not getting why this isn’t just more of you and Glenn arguing on Twitter.
I’ve spent more time on BJ in the last 24 hours trying to give people a clue than I have in the past month. I remember now why I’d mostly stopped paying attention over there.
On the other hand, if my blood pressure can use the break, I can only imagine what it must be like for you. *hugs*
And another thing. Greenwald? Srsly? The man who is in favor of the rape torture and abuse of women in prostitution and porn thinks he has the effing high ground when he accuses others of condoning rape? Sure, fella.
Both John Cole and Glenn Greenwald are such intellectual giants that they honestly believed Iraq had WMD and supported the illegal war against it in 2003. Iraq. How was it ever conceivable that a state headed by a former CIA asset that had 100,000 soldiers annihilated in 1991 and over 10 years of no-fly zones, bombing raids, satellite surveillance, UN sanctions and weapon inspections had weapons capable of threatening a Superpower with a nuclear arsenal capable of turning the planet into molten slag. Why anyone would put any faith in either of those cretins is beyond me.
Sorry to be so late but I read about this last night at TPV but read this thread this morning and really wanted to comment on it. ABL, I visit your website everyday and think you have put together a really good group of individuals. You put up with the idiocy over at the other place way longer than I did. Here’s my question: If Charles Krauthammer had made the same statement do you really think that Cole would let it pass? And alternatively if PBO made the statement “If I said that raping nuns on live television was a bad thing. Republicans would go out of thier way to disagree with me”. ( I know that he would never be so insensitive or immature to say something like that) So many of the “progressive” bloggers sitting silently would be up in so much arms right now, particularly Greenwald.
Anyway, your voice and prespective is valuable keep speaking out for your beliefs, it is appreciated.
I managed to miss this whole thing, dear, but I have to say that I (and many others) will miss you over at Balloon Juice.
Ah, good, you commented here so I can fetch your blog up for a read. I was going to miss your work.
I’m sorry you’re leaving Balloon Juice; you were one of the reasons I became such a big fan. All the same, I understand why you did. People take offense for legitimate reasons, and others need to try to understand and respect that. When they can’t, well, you need to do what you think is right. I hope this blog ends up drawing as many readers and Balloon Juice has. I know I’ll be one, at least.
Dear ABL,
Inasmuch as I stumbled on to your blog first several months ago (and have been lurking here ever since), I was only aware of Balloon Juice vis-a-vis references to it from here. Never been there, never saw a real need to, and the heinous crap that has gone down the past couple of days merely confirms that for me. So to ripoff a line from the movie Jagged Edge, “Fuck ‘em, they was trash”. Keep doing what you do right here. I appreciate it a great deal.
You punched above your weight for a while and got sent back to the minors.
Don’t fuckin’ cry about it.
Because the surest sign of being able to “play with the big boys” is brushing off something silly and stupid like a rape crack.
Tell me, how DO you keep from choking to death on your own bile? Whatever you’re doing, please stop already.
She read the writing on the wall.
It’s actually reasonably perceptive, something of which I’m convinced she’s almost incapable.
I completely agree, she read the writing on the wall.
Oh wait, you think the writing on the wall wasn’t “My friend and proprietor of a blog I write for is willing to butt in and defend a jackass intellectually masturbating with someone else’s rape analogy over his friend (on top of being someone who does have to worry about the way rape is trivialized)”?
Weird.
Then explain how the rape joke was no big deal?
So, not taking a sick rape joke makes her an amateur?
How about not being insensitive jerks and treating like she less than, is that possible?
No, you cant say that, the privileged you feel wont let you
Since when is troll behavior perceptive?
As an internet veteran – I can tell you that what happened to ABL is troll behavior. Trolling is not “major league” behavior. It’s not even minor league. It’s primary purpose is to incite hostility. Meaningful exchange and discourse is the furtherest concern in the mind of those who engage in this behavior. And for somebody who claims to be analytical and intellectual, Greenwald has just proven the exact opposite. He and his fans get pushed into an intellectual corner and this is what they resort to? How sad!
ABL handled herself just fine. It was GG and others who ended up looking like idiots.
There’s a saying on the internet and I’m sure you’ve heard of it: “Don’t feed the trolls.” There’s a good reason for this. Trolls are destructive. I’ve seen them destroy once vibrant online communities due to lack of moderation. There’s no reason for ABL or anybody else to dwell in similiar destructive conditions.
go back to balloon juice and join in on the 900+ comment thread full of misogynist asshole comments like your own. we don’t do that here. that’s cole’s bailiwick. i don’t want any part of it and you’re not welcome here if you’re going to spew it.
the amusing part is, i may be punching up, but greenwald is punching down, and doing it in the most cowardly way. he won’t debate me substantively, so he thought of the most hurtful thing he could say to shut me up. well it hurt, but it didn’t shut me up. i have no doubt that i could take him, and i have no doubt that he knows it which, again, is why he runs from debate.
he’s the coward. not me, jackass.
Since when was your dating experiences relevant to this conversation? Here’s something I bet you see written on a wall regarding you:
DIAF
Now, shoo fly…
I feel the strong need to rattle off a great many expletives, but it would seem in poor taste, so let’s go with (unproblematic slur) x50.
I sent you an e-mail a while back, ’cause I’m scared of comment sites, when you were getting dogpiled unfairly on BJ. (Uh, one of the times. One of the many, many times.) Since you’re no worse a writer, and indeed much better, than many other bloggers they have no problem with, I thought it was just racism, misogyny, and the tangy mix of racism and misogyny. But now I know better. Now I know it’s about ninety nine percent racism and misogyny, with “secretly wants to be a libertarian but can’t summon the tremendous open ego-stroking to justify it” as that one percent that just pushes it over the top.
(That said, that one guy who started commenting by telling everyone that liberals care too much about gay rights attacking Greenwald because he’s gay and lives in Brazil and likes gay conservatives? Let’s just say I don’t think he’s got your back out of the goodness of his heart.)
Basically, this was a tremendous load of bullshit by Greenwald, which got an additional helping of bullshit from Cole, and that amount of bullshit was heavy enough to break down the walls of the Bullshit Containment Centre and bring about a bullshitalanche like no other. And the sheer amount of people saying “YAY NOW THE BLACK WOMAN IS GONE EVERYTHING WILL BE PERFECT AGAIN” are disgusting and add nothing to the conversation. I enjoyed reading your posts on Balloon Juice and will enjoy reading them here.
I got the sick feeling they’ll get bored and start streaming in here trolling this place to death.
Lets hope that doesnt come about
Then there must be a way to ban the…miscreants (I’m trying to be nice…and I don’t know if GreenLadyHere is lurking…she’d want to put me in “the bad chair”).
Oh, I guarantee you there is a way to ban/boot any miscreants. It’s an inherent feature built into WordPress. I’ve had a couple try on my blog, and if I’m not in the mood to vivisect them, I just boot them and make them “disappear.” I think it’s funny when they try – and complain – because my reaction is always “it’s my blog, my rules. Sucks to be you.”
Norbrook, Greenwald would tell you that what you’re SUPPOSED to do is make up a sock puppet and start harassing them. I mean, how do you think you’ll achieve Very Serious Internet Dude status unless you do that? ;)
(snickering) If I didn’t invent it, I was one of the early adopters that technique almost 20 years ago. Unlike Greenwald, people never caught on to who the “vicious troll” was.
thank you patrick. the amusing thing is, i quit over the summer and was begged to return by john cole and doug j. i suspect some of the more odious trolls exist there only to call me racist, sensitive, etc. they hurl schoolyard insults at me despite knowing i don’t read them. it’s obsessive and it would be flattering if it weren’t so goddamn pathetic.
one clown, in particular, corner stone, is butthurt that i kicked his ass in a debate about bradley manning during my first month there, and never got over it.
and then there’s little timmy kola noscopy the sandusky defender. he’s a real gem.
they’re all sick people who insist on trolling a blog full knowing that cole can’t stand them. yet they fancy themselves the guardians of a place that would forget them as soon as they left. the only issue is that cole doesn’t give enough of a shit to clean up the place, so he’ll be left with mostly assholes who have no one to pick on now that the the black bitch is gone.
Cole is an asshole and the miscreants that cement their underemployed asses at BJ pretending to be great spokesmen are also a joke. You can tell that they have problems with women handing their asses to them on a blog. It reminds them too much of their sad attempts at trying to meet women who can smell their shit a mile away.
I don’t think he’s an asshole (although he might disagree). I think he made a mistake that spiraled out of his control because he wasn’t clear about what he was intending to do going into it. His error is not having understood that the rape quip was more than “obnoxious and dickish.” And I truly think that he has a blind spot when it comes to Greenwald because they’re friends, which is understandable, although regrettable. At any rate, hee gave me a platform with a wide audience when hardly anyone knew who I was, and we became friends in the process. Unforch, he just really fucked this one up.
But you know, I learned a lot, hopefully he did, and now I can focus on what’s important instead of getting bogged down in the bullshit over there.
ABLxx
I read all 1100 or so comments on that post. I don’t understand the public humiliation in the post or the comments. Not even a little. But what I really don’t understand is what was so difficult to understand about being pissed about anyone, regardless of who they are, saying you would defend rape. How is that even a little bit difficult?
Many hugs for you. This whole episode reminds me of that time where the schoolyard bully beats up a classmate and the guy beaten up gets the suspension from school while the bully goes scot free. That happened to one of my kids. It still rankles. Injustice, on and offline, rankles.
Maybe someone will explain why it’s ok to demonize everyone who has a different viewpoint without even trying to understand them. Then again, maybe I’ll just get used to it one day. For now, I just feel really sad and disheartened.
Karoli, I feel like some of my interactions on this over the past few days have been in the Twilight Zone — “Oh, Greenwald didn’t mean it that way, or he did but everyone piled on him so therefore it excuses what he originally said, and John Cole spends a lot of time cleaning out racist commentary on ABL’s posts” and on and on and on. And if you object to the way this went down and to the complete and total trivialization of rape culture and the deliberate blindness to the racial and cultural framing inherent in the “black dude rapes innocent woman” (“Birth of a Nation,” anyone?) AND you happen to be a woman, then the usual bullshit about how you’re not controlling your “tone” comes into it, as well.
Just today I thought what would have happened if someone had sniggered that Glenn Greenwald would cheer on Ron Paul if he gay-bashed somebody, and then somebody else said Greenwald would excuse it because Paul was demonstrating that federal hate-crimes laws are actually “thought crimes” and it’s a matter of states’ rights, and yet another person postulated that Greenwald would secretly want to be the one getting bashed by Paul. Do we honestly think anyone would be leaping to the defense of the homophobic jerkwad capable of formulating/supporting such a notion in a public forum? (I maintain that failing to denounce something that pernicious or amplifying the original idea, as Greenwald did, IS supporting it.) Nope.
But at least I feel as if I got a teeny taste of what ABL has had to put up with for a long time. With friends like Cole, who needs enemas?
Karoli, I typed a response but it disappeared in the ether. But yes — I’m just gobsmacked by the pretzels people who consider themselves progressives will tie themselves into in order to deny the full implications of what Greenwald signed onto and what Cole defended.
Imagine if someone had tweeted that Greenwald would cheer on Ron Paul as he beat up a gay man, and then someone else said that Greenwald would defend it because Paul was just making a point about the futility of federal hate-crimes laws as overreaching “thought crimes” legislation, and yet another person postulated that Greenwald would secretly love to be the one getting bashed. Would not all the participants in that thread be disgusting jerks? And would not anyone who felt the need to “defend” them from the pushback they brought on themselves by engaging in homophobic and hurtful rhetoric also be a jerk?
But no. It’s the people who push back who are bad because of their “tone” and because they don’t realize that Greenwald really did mean it and he feels passionately about these things. HIS passions and overheated rhetoric are understandable, you see — those of people who might, oh, actually have been raped are just naturally histrionic and dismissable.
So really — I’m feeling your sadness as well. But sometimes it’s good to know who your friends aren’t.
that’s the crux of it: if it hadn’t been greenwald (and, let’s face it, hadn’t been me on the receiving end) scores of people would have cried foul.
the most amusing part is that he successfully deflected from the fact that greenwald still refuses to speak substantively to me about any of his ridiculous fear-mongering bullshittery.
he’s a coward and deflects by calling me a coward. i’m the one saying “hey! i have beef with your arguments.” his response is invariably “CULTIST! DERANGED! YOU’RE NON-EXISTENT TO ME.” he upped the ante to “you’d sanction rape” because i bet he knows that “cultist” doesn’t have sting anymore since it’s so overrused.
at the end of the day, he’s a socially awkward jackass and i’ll take comfort in the fact that he is too cowardly to debate me substantively.
-ABLxx
I see Greenwald is doing his weasely best to cover his flabby ass because of the fallout. I skimmed through his revisionist bullshit, followed by his bobby-soxer comments. Like it always is on Salon.com, wash, rinse, repeat.
Yet another ridiculous pile-on by the Obama cultists, always on the lookout for a way to take GG down a notch. We can add this Very Terrible Incident to the “and he works for the CATO institute” idiocy.
This is classy, ABL:
“Rape survivors are telling you that they are offended. You are laughing at them. It’s typical male behavior and it’s shameful.”
Ridiculous hyperbole and a dose of man-hate on the side.
Riiight. Because telling a woman she’d cheer on rape/fantasize about being raped isn’t hyperbolic in the least. And yes, by all means let’s worry about the REAL victims here — the men who tell women who object to using rape analogies to score political points that they’re being hysterical. Poor Glenn Greenwald! Poor John Cole! Such sinned-against victims.
Angry Black Lady was NEVER so happy as when Glenn Greenwald mentioned her at all. Guaranteed she was drooling over the attention. GUARANTEED. So let’s get it out in the open now, metaphors are okay as long as the ABL Police approve them. That’s as stupid as a snake with legs. Oh sorry, I should have gotten approval by you to say that first. My bad.
Another Greenwaldian coward sneaking in a month after the fact?
No courage required for that, Spanky. Where were you when the discussion was taking place for the rest of us?
And does Ron Paul know you’re taking unauthorized time out from worshipping his graven image to drop your nonsense in here like a small, steaming turd?