Occupy Wall Street is losing its focus.
President Obama was in New Hampshire giving a jobs speech when a bunch of occupiers started shouting incoherently and were immediately shouted down by Obama supporters:
According to Think Progress, “a protestor shouted ‘mic check’ and others joined in with shouts.” Ok. Sure — why not. All I heard was some incoherent yelling immediately followed by chants of “Obama! Obama!” and I bet that’s what most people who watch this video will hear as well.
The pro-Obama chanting combined with Obama’s handling of the #OWS hecklers — “‘families like yours, young people like the ones here today — including the ones who were just chanting at me — you’re the reason that I ran for office in the first place.’” — makes this video good for the Obama campaign and not so great for Occupy Wall Street (which is already losing public support.)
I had lunch yesterday with a good friend of mine who is not a political junkie, but keeps up on what’s going on. She’s an NPR listener. We were discussing Occupy Wall Street, and she said to me, “They’re losing focus.”
And they are. It’s hard to deny it. What started two months ago as the beginnings of an uprising over income inequality, corporate greed, and bank shenanigans has morphed into a battle of wills between people who want to live in encampments in public spaces (or private, as in the case of Zuccotti Park) and cities who’d rather they not.
And the discussion about corporate greed and income inequality has given way to complaints that this is a police state and a demand that President Obama “do something about it.” But what exactly? I’ve heard everything from “He should deploy the Marines to protect protestors” to “He must speak.”
Got it? He should either militarize an already tense situation (only at certain occupations, though because not all of them have devolved into violence and police brutality) or give a nice speech. But then what? What happens after the nice speech? What happens after each location is “sufficiently occupied” (by whatever method one could measure such)? Then what?
As for the mic checkers in New Hampshire, why? What purpose did your little disruption serve? Were you protesting something? What? Do you even know?
Because let me tell you something: President Obama is working for you.
When people ask me about my feelings on Occupy Wall Street, I say “I support Occupy Wall Street except when I don’t.”
Right now? I don’t.
OWS can kick rocks for all I care. Nothing they are spouting has not been discussed over and over again across dinner tables, barber and beauty shops, get together by many in the black community for years. I am 51 years old and none of this is new to many POC and poor. It really gripes my ass that these concerns are only now being addressed because Middle America is now suffering. Boo effing hoo.
I am glad the OWSers were drowned out. I am sick of hearing about them and their camps. Try raising a family of three on $30,000 a year and get back to me.
Amen.
A- fucking-Men! These folks just figured out that the shit hits the fan and can splatter? As Bruce Willis in Die Hard says “WELCOME TO THE PARTY, PAL!!” Where were you jackasses all this time? Asleep?
My question is whether OWS has a specific goal or goals toward which they are working, I don’t have the time or the patience to protest just for the sake of protesting.
Morons. If you’re going to disrupt a speech, you have about 10-15 seconds to make a point before the crowd will react and drown you out. Get to the fucking point then STFU.
I’m losing my patience with these folks. The way I see it, I just think it’s a bunch of asshurt white males who are complaining over the fact their skin color didn’t grant them an MBA with a $100K entry-level job. With John Lewis getting the double bird, the Reena Walker article (and a moron DKos commenter thinking she had to be a GOP operative because.. well, black women can’t speak for themselves!), Michael Moore’s hysterical opinions and this, it’s all over.
I’m done with these people.
Yup,just a bunch of ass hurt white males…..oh wait I think you’re talking about the tea party. Might want to get those blinders checked out, you might miss out on what’s going on around you.
Considering we have Walsh, Sirota, Hamsher, Moore, and Greenwald upset PBO isn’t the Magical Negro they thought he would be, I think I can say white angst isn’t just a Tea Party trait.
One side is mad a black person got there in the first place, and another is mad over the fact he didn’t make their lives better at the expense of his sanity.
Even with blinders on, I can still see quite well, thanks.
I hate to agree
As a black man, the dark thought came to mind thinking….
“Oh, the cops are suddenly dropping ass whopping on you for no good reason?
Talk to us in about a couple hundred years to see if we sympathize”
What happened to the 99% movement? The overwhelming majority of the 99% don’t give a damn about protesters “right” to build shantytowns in public parks. It’s not something they can get behind.
Nice Boochie, real nice. So you’ve been in the parade protesting your circumstances for a very long time and no one listened. And along comes a huge parade with many people decrying those same injustices that you’ve been demanding be heard for so long and all you can say when the parade comes to your street corner is…..what took you so long? Screw you for not listening earlier? Interesting strategy to gain nothing. You are very smart.
Somebody raising a family on 30,000.00 a year in an economy that has placed downward pressure on their wages for 30 years, is probably not real impressed with parades. But they are damned sure smart.
Seems like there’s a whole lotta “Get offa my lawn” going around. You people are so special.
And so are you, though it’s in a rather “short bus” kind of way.
Another one with a title to flog. It is like driving a red corvette with hair plugs and popping viagra. Are we supposed to be impressed?
dr. Heisenburg:
OWS has not reached the point where OWS can demand and get respect.
Thus: We shall see.
agrippa:
What a vacuous statement.
Thus: You don’t see.
agrippa:
What a vacuous statement.
Thus: You don’t see.
wow! you certainly told me off!!
fail
I have to add, the President’s poise and maturity are such an inspiration to me. He truly is the only adult in the room. People don’t get the many little ways this man leads by example.
It’ll be interesting to see how this post is received at ballonjuice. It’s blasphemy to speak of OWS in anything other than glowing terms.
I can’t be bothered with those jackals today.
They really do need to get some coherent philosophy. Play like the 1%: Define your goals and work toward them by any means possible. “Because we want to” is not a reason to gather a thousand people in a park in and of itself. That being said, the police need to stand down with their fascist tactics. That doesn’t solve anything either.
I repeat what I posted to Heisenburg:
We shall see.
I absolutely respect and read this site and all of its contributors, almost every day. And I will vote for Obama, no question. But I don’t get the OWS “checking”.
I see the organic change of conversation inspired by OWS and I even celebrate “mic checking” President Obama because: 1) he can, and did handle it; 2) their questions are legit; and 3) back to my point 1) — our president can handle it. And can probably benefit from it / corral it as a part of a successful 2012 campaign. People, please. This is a two month old movement that we, and everyone else is talking about. They got this. Our president has “got this” to some degree. It doesn’t have to be coherant in two months, passion is a good thing.
I agree. I agree with what you said about PBO and OWS.
It is early days for OWS, and it is a long term project. OWS will have adapt to circumstances and be persistent.
Are you so sure about this?
The things I miss when a client calls!
That does it, then. OWS has proven themselves to be downright idiotic. (Not that this was the only reason.)
Yes, it’s terrible that police are pepper-spraying people who are doing sit-ins. It was worse when they were turning fire hoses and dogs on people at places like the Edmund Pettus bridge, don’t you think? (Or is it somehow not real if it happened to someone before you were born?)
That said, OWS has devolved from an expression of frustration over a rigged game – a legitimate complaint, to be sure – into a fight over camping in parks, without ever growing into something that had a vision of a goal to accomplish.
Here’s a hint to the protesters: “Look at me!” isn’t a goal unless you’re four or under.
And protesting everything is protesting nothing.
Stupid, stupid, stupid, those OWS’ers are.
President Obama is not the cause of any of their problems. He might, given support instead of classless street-theater antics, be part of the solution. As a very smart sign said, his campaign slogan was “Yes, we can.” not “Yes, he can.” and that said it all. He wanted participation, not expectation, and too many were too selfish and lazy to go along. (And some were just plain dim, dammit.)
A longtime friend, one-time protege even, said he would not favor voter registration at OWS because voting was what got us into this mess.
Unbelievable. I’ve come close to cutting him loose because of that. Not voting is not an answer, unless the question is “How do we get all Republicans in office, and thus make things worse for ourselves?” or its equivalent.
Yes, it’s frustrating. This is life, not Twitter. You’re not only allowed more than 140 characters, it’s required.
Street theater alienates people. Working toward goals motivates and enlists them. Time for that lesson to be learned.
Keep it up, you dumbshits. More of this and I just might develop some sympathy for the pepper-sprayers.
Yes WE Can! Guy With Ponytail, your friend needs to.. Just ask OHIO if Voting Counts. I’ve read Michael Moore has said “voting doesn’t work..we tried that.” Tried that? Like in the 2010 Midterms? Really?
“Michael Moore Goes Full Wingnut on President Obama on OWS Crackdown”
http://www.mediaite.com/online/michael-moore-goes-the-full-wingnut-on-president-obama-over-occupy-crackdown/
Amen! I understand that people are ‘I want it all and I want it NOW’ but really? PBO said WE were the ones to do it, he said don’t give the keys back to those who drove us in the ditch during the midterms and people just weren’t listening. Now it’s ALL HIS fault, really? It’s enough to make me want to scream!
I am an Obama supporter and I posted this on FB but it also belongs here:
Any true participant of OWS will tell you that there are no decided upon ‘leaders’ as is commonly defined. Anyone who has ever attended a general assembly can tell you that the structure is horizontal leadership, and because of that anyone interested in exercising their first amendment right to protest can do so on their own, with or without followers. The only requirement, so to speak, is that it not be violent (that is the only time it will be disavowed or repudiated by OWS in general).
The concept of horizontal leadership, a movement not governed by a permanent hierarchy, is proving to be difficult for some of our fellow Americans to grasp
…Democracy, even in our democratic republic, can be and usually is messy. Disrupting politicians while they’re speaking, civil disobedience, etc. are a part of that messiness. And, these things take time. Considering the movement is barely over 60 days old, we’ve managed to change the national dialogue and spark similar efforts all over the country and across the globe.
The Civil Rights movement and the protests of the 60s took years. This is a marathon, not a sprint. We’re in it for the long haul for the good of the country in which we live. We’re not interested in quick fixes to systemic problems that have taken decades to manifest their ruinous effects on we the people.
I must add that similar complaints were made ABOUT the Civil Rights movement and the anti-war protests of the 60s, and, believe it or not, the Equal Rights Amendment (for women) marches of the 70s and 80s.
People, calm down and stop allowing the MSM to tell you what OWS stands for, or doesn’t stand for. Either look up the websites and read what’s happening, including their chats & ‘think tanks’, and do so with an open mind, or attend an OWS in your city if you have one.
OK then:
The concept of horizontal leadership is a good reason why OWS will accomplish nothing. There is no focus and no leadership – OWS has become just a bunch of people making noise in the parks.
Develop a vision, find someone dynamic and telegenic to articulate it, cultivate a network of skilled organizers and coaches to move things forward, and you’ll have something capable of accomplishment. Until then, not.
Non-rhetorical question: Would the Civil Rights movement have been even a quarter as effective without Dr. King taking the point? Could it have turned out the crowds day after day, month after month, year after year, and changed laws and won court cases, without leadership?
It’s not about feeling, it’s about doing, and coordinated action is always stronger than random action. Always. As in without exception, until you can show me the counterexample.
“Develop a vision, find someone dynamic and telegenic to articulate it, cultivate a network of skilled organizers and coaches to move things forward, and you’ll have something capable of accomplishment. Until then, not.”
You mean like Obama? And the democratic party?
You are very special indeed.
Well, Obama is doing a much better job than a movement who still doesn’t have a concrete goal and purpose.
As I said above, you, to, are special, in a very “short bus” manner.
You special, special snowflake, you…
Tee hee, I called you special and you did the same thing only you added the “short bus” in quotes to reinforce it.
You are precious, like a snowflake, indeed.
Somebody get this “doctor” a ruler. He is about to whip it out and show what a bad ass he is on the internets.
“You are very special indeed.”
“heisenburg”:
Fail.
another stupid troll.
throw it a fish.
I disagree with you and here’s why:
Again, the idea of horizontal leadership is confusing to even you, based on your response. And, I say that not to imply (and not for you to infer) that you are dumb because I would never deign to say that. But, the concept is very different than what we are accustomed to seeing and participating in, and clearly people are more comfortable with what they know.
The OWS movement is not confined to the occupiers of the various parks across the country. Unions are involved, churches, clergy, doctors, teachers, nurses, rank & file office workers, blue collar workers, etc., and WE VOTE! Consequently, while some may choose to heckle POTUS, and rightly get shut down, the rest of us are organizing around, and working towards the issues highlighted by the movement.
Most importantly, with the Civil Rights movement, as with the Black Panther Party, when the head(s) get cut off, the movement withers and dies. With a horizontal leadership structure, everyone who has the intestinal fortitude can step up and BE the leadership they’ve been waiting for, making it more difficult to shut down the movement by targeting and cutting off the head/leadership.
Charismatic leaders are exciting and motivate some people, but it merely perpetuates the politics of personality. We’ve had enough of that, haven’t you?
“Horizontal leadership” = no leadership.
Show me a leaderless movement succeeding.
American Revolution? Washington, Adams, Franklin, Hamilton, Paine. India? Mohandas Gandhi. Civil rights? Dr. King, and others. Viet Cong? Ho Chi Minh. South Africa? Nelson Mandela.
Chicago 1968, maybe the closest American analogue to OWS? Unsuccessful, unless you’re a Nixon supporter. I am not.
A mass without direction is not a movement, it’s a formless blob.
Go study some history and come back later.
No, horizontal leadership is not the same as no leadership. You’re simply wrong.
Given the dismissive tone & tenor of your response, I’ll leave you to your wrong-headed naysaying. Enjoy it.
There is no leadership with OWS. Period. Even if the leadership was hidden from view, if it is there, it’s obvious. Just as the title of this article said, “OWS is losing it’s focus.” And it’s losing support.
You are right about this being a marathon, but I’m not so sure if OWS is equipped to run one. You are talking to a person who saw similiar protests like OWS make hardly an impact on those they were protesting. So, sorry, if I still remain skeptical.
nabsentia23
I admit I do not watch network television much anymore so I don’t know what hipster noobs you’ve been seeing that have been titled as spokespeople for OWS. My spare time on the weekends and sometimes after 5pm on the weekdays has been with #occupywallst and Occupy BK (Brooklyn). However, I encourage you to try to think outside of the box (I couldn’t think of a more apt cliche).
If the American people are bound and determined to perpetuate the part of our culture that requires perfectly coiffed talking heads to articulate a message that stands alone in its righteousness, even after being informed over & over again, that there is no one sanctioned spokesperson for OWS (and actually seeing and/or reading the comments of more ‘buttoned-up’ supporters and participants of the movement, then so be it. I don’t say that glibly, I say that resignedly.
Seeing as you are on ABL’s blog, I give you credit for being insightful, or at least being open-minded enough to read social commentary outside of the mainstream. And, because of that, I’m certain you understood what I wrote, however clumsily I may have written it.
While t-publicans continue to push their anti-intellectual message and get more of their people on board, I would like to hope that those on the left side of the political spectrum would similarly push the message of substance over style.
That’s the problem, Loren. OWS has no spokespeople, no central message, no clear organization, etc. And because of this, anybody who has an ulterior agenda can quickly define what it is and shape it to their liking.
So, instead of harping on how OWS is suppose to be so unique, so new, so original, trying focusing more how it’s being handled on a practical level. In other words, OWS needs to get its head out of the clouds and see how this is all playing out on planet Earth.
Loren:
Historically you’re correct – however, what those movements had that the Occupy folks lack are clear leaders and spokesmen. My mother always told me “People will always try to shoot at you, but you don’t have to buy the ammo for them.” By letting a bunch of wild eyed, unkempt hipster college kids, or worse, self-important hacks like Michael Moore and Glenn Greenwald, speak for their movement instead controlling message and having a core team of strategists – the Occupy movement is allowing the MSM to shape our perception of them with little real input.
The reason why people like Dr. King, Rosa Parks and Bro. Malcolm rose as spokes persons was rather simple – beyond being great leaders in their own right, their respective movements realized they needed eloquent thinkers to be their messengers. In our media drenched culture, image matters.
Hell, its so simple even the Tea Party figured it out. Why else do you think women like Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachmann and Christine O’Donnell rise to prominence amongst their ranks? Its certainly not for intellect.
You want to be serious, learn to play the game right. Get the hipster art major who looks like he spends all day in dive bars drinking Pabst and writing for Pitchfork away from the cameras and reporters – and put up somebody who looks like he or she has a future beyond writing bad alt rock songs.
You’re better off having an educated, moderate established 20 somethings become the voice of #OWS than some 19-year old noobs that Michael Moore can drag around the Talking Head Circuit like Sally Struthers with starving East African children.
Its about controlling the message, instead the message controlling you. Also, you have to have a plan B strategy for next steps. That’s the difference between the Tea Party and OWS – the former were thinking longer term, the latter can’t think past the next drum circle.
Cappadonna (aka LACoincidental)-
I admit I do not watch network television much anymore so I don’t know what hipster noobs you’ve been seeing that have been titled as spokespeople for OWS. My spare time on the weekends and sometimes after 5pm on the weekdays has been with #occupywallst and Occupy BK (Brooklyn). However, I encourage you to try to think outside of the box (I couldn’t think of a more apt cliche).
If the American people are bound and determined to perpetuate the part of our culture that requires perfectly coiffed talking heads to articulate a message that stands alone in its righteousness, even after being informed over & over again, that there is no one sanctioned spokesperson for OWS (and actually seeing and/or reading the comments of more ‘buttoned-up’ supporters and participants of the movement, then so be it. I don’t say that glibly, I say that resignedly.
Seeing as you are on ABL’s blog, I give you credit for being insightful, or at least being open-minded enough to read social commentary outside of the mainstream. And, because of that, I’m certain you understood what I wrote, however clumsily I may have written it.
While t-publicans continue to push their anti-intellectual message and get more of their people on board, I would like to hope that those on the left side of the political spectrum would similarly support substance over style.
Loren I speak as both a progressive and an experienced political operative. Having no core leadership and a haphazard media strategy is antithetical to progress. You can’t get things done if everything has to be decided by ‘the mob’. Even horizontal leadership paradigms have some centralized groupings for control -otherwise its just chaos. And horizontal leadership typically involves small groups of similar backgrounds, not massive mobs with dissimilar interests. And when you don’t control how your presented in the media or have spokespeople who can counter the corporate media’s narrative, you have given up any means to reach masses.
Simply put, the #OWS, or even your local segment, needs a spokesman or spokespersons – it simply can’t survive or thrive without any.
Cappadonna (aka LACoincidental)
Hierarchy (a core leadership) always develops because some people participate every day, or more regularly than others. The only difference is that hierarchy is not sanctioned to remain forever should someone else step up to the plate.
Additionally, given that #occupywallst started on the internet, the internet *is* the counter to the MSM narrative; there are OWS websites for every city that has an Occupy rally or protest. There is no valid reason that those on the left purporting to support the ideas of the movement, or the movement itself, don’t know that. And, the goals/list of demands of OWS have been posted on the website and in circulation since late September.
IMO, there is no validity to this criticism. …but, time will tell.
“but, time will tell.”
Loren, indeed it will.
I will wait and see if OWS has staying power; I will wait and see if it has the wit, the wisdom, the organization and the tenacity to become a force that cannot be ignored. So far, it is all potentail.
You make a lot of assumptions here, with few facts to back them up. First of all I do not get my news from the MSM, and have not been witness to any of their OWS coverage. As a matter of fact, I have been involved in Occupy from the beginning- I’ve been to Zucotti park, as well as my local occupation which I was actively involved with in the beginning. I have watched hours of Livestream, including the raids in Oakland, Portland, Atlanta and Seattle- and the livestreamed GA’s in all of those cities. I have been to the websites and read the proclamations and even the meeting minutes. This is not a matter of being ill informed for me. Truth is, I see a lot of good in #Occupy, but I also see some fatal flaws. Flaws that are not being addressed because people are too wrapped up in naval gazing and self-worship to pay attention.
Your comment actually perfectly illustrates one of the fatal flaws with the Occupy movement- it has become all about THEM. It is all about the Occupiers, their right to camp in parks , their right to express “free speech” (irrespective of the time place and manner restrictions that the rest of us are expected to abide by) the police brutality THEY suffer- which has been terrible, no doubt, but nothing compared to what black and brown people in this country have been subjected to for decades while most of the Occupy kids were too busy updating their Twitter and playing Farmland to pay attention. I’m sure there are many at OWS with good intentions and who are truly passionate about fixing our broken system- but from what I’ve seen (and again, I’ve seen quite a bit) the overwhelming vibe I get off of OWS is VANITY. What seems to be the number one issue driving the Occupiers at this point in time? You saw it right there in the Mic check- they aren’t demanding that President Obama address income inequality or the suffering of the poor and disenfranchised- they are demanding that he speak out about THEIR suffering. All I hear about is THEM, how many of them got arrested, how many of them got pepper sprayed, how they are such an amazing movement that they have inspired the whole world, ad nauseam. It is interesting that you bring up the civil rights movement -first of all, comparisons between OWS and the Civil Rights Movement are abominable on their face, because there is simply no comparison to the ruthless violence that was faced by groups like the Freedom Riders and what OWS protestors have been subjected to. Yes, yall have been pepper sprayed and beaten by cops- but no one has been shot and killed like Medgar Evers, or blown to pieces like the little girls in Birmingham, or beaten by an angry mob to the point of death like Jon Lewis. You know, the same John Lewis that Occupy Atlanta told to get back in line and wait his turn to speak, because he was no better than anyone else.
What irritates me about OWS is the constant reverence paid to their own suffering, and the fact that if I dare speak ill of them I’m told that until I’m out there camping in the rain and the cold and getting pepper spray down my throat I’m not allowed to have an opinion. In other words- you need to suffer before you have a say. Nevermind the fact that as a single mom living below the poverty line, every day is suffering and sacrifice for me. But my struggle doesn’t get me on Youtube or livestream- it is one I face in silence, along with millions of Americans in my situation. So it is very telling that when a movement that claims to speak on my behalf is given a platform to have their voices heard (and only because our president was gracious enough to give it to them) they don’t speak to my struggle, the struggle of the 99%, but that of the 0.3% or so who have been pepper sprayed.
Yes, Occupy has lost its focus. And in so doing, it has lost me, and a lot of other people will follow until they stop talking about themselves and start listening to the rest of us for a change.
Traumanurse85, I’ve been to Zuccotti Park many times and do not find the navel gazing you describe. However, it is unfortunate for you that you have decided *not* to step up and be the leadership that you want to see. If the movement has lost you, that is also unfortunate, but it is to be expected that there will be lost souls along the way. …just like in the Civil Rights Movement.
You are correct that no one has been killed, but I have to wonder what level of police brutality and abuse of power is acceptable to you; qualified outrage is a slippery slope.
You are also making quite a leap of logic to conclude that the movement is doomed because it doesn’t fit your stylized/romanticized version of what protest movements look like. The paradigm has shifted.
Martin Luther King wrote the Letter from a Birmingham Jail (in response to other clergy and citizens who were complaining about his tactics and essentially that he’d *lost his focus* and was losing their support) in April of 1963. About SIXTY days later Medgar Evers was killed (June, 12, 1963). Martin Luther King was assassinated FIVE YEARS later, on April 4, 1968.
The Civil Rights Movement was made up of many reform movements (as #occupywallst spawned OWS & 99%) that lasted from about 1945 until 1970. But you and other detractors of OWS apparently believe that somehow it was a resounding political and social success in less time than OWS has been around.
I suspect that our culture’s insistence on immediate gratification has affected more of us than we realize.
Loren how on earth am I going to assert leadership in what you yourself have acknowledged is a horizontal, leaderless movement? And I couldn’t even if I wanted to. Again, I’m a single parent. I work long hours, and my free time is spent with my child. The rest of your post is again illustrative of the problem. I am speaking not as a detractor but as a frustrated supporter of the message and the motive of OWS. Why is your knee-jerk reaction to be dismissive and deflect my concerns? This insularity and defensiveness is another part of the problem. Instead of writing people off and acting like OWS is just above all reproach, put on your organizer cap and try to find some common ground. That is how movements are built.
“Loren how on earth am I going to assert leadership in what you yourself have acknowledged is a horizontal, leaderless movement? And I couldn’t even if I wanted to. Again, I’m a single parent. I work long hours, and my free time is spent with my child. The rest of your post is again illustrative of the problem. I am speaking not as a detractor but as a frustrated supporter of the message and the motive of OWS. Why is your knee-jerk reaction to be dismissive and deflect my concerns? This insularity and defensiveness is another part of the problem. Instead of writing people off and acting like OWS is just above all reproach, put on your organizer cap and try to find some common ground. That is how movements are built.”
I did NOT say it is leaderless, I said it has a horizontal leadership structure. In other words, you CAN be a leader.
If you don’t like what is proposed you can block it. If you don’t like what is being proposed, you can form your own direct action committee, find your own supporters and do something you find more constructive.
I was in no way dismissive. That’s a misconception I cannot help you with.
Your response was to tell me that *I* should have taken a leadership role if I had a problem, and that my issues were based on my need for “instant gratification”. That is dismissive. So was your subsequent response.
The fact that you don’t see it as such is again illustrative of the bigger problem. But I get the impression you don’t think there is a problem to begin with, so this may be a pointless exercise.
What you call dismissive is what I consider just telling the truth.
If you don’t like what is proposed, there is nothing stopping you from leading your own direct action committee and doing something else, or proposing something else, or blocking the proposal you don’t like. That’s just the way it is in a movement with a horizontal leadership structure. Again I say, the paradigm has shifted, and clearly some are ill-equipped to recognize it. The same axiom about *not* voting applies to *not* participating in a movement you generally support: don’t complain if things don’t go your way.
IMO, the detractors need OWS to fit what they want a movement to look like. They/you need someone to blame if it isn’t what you want. They/you need to see the familiar top-down leadership they’re used to seeing. This isn’t that kind of party.
My mention of immediate gratification was in direct response to your lament that no one was beaten or shot (as well as to your comment about it having fatal flaws). The movement has been in existence for less than *three* months. The Civil Rights movement was in existence for decades, and waxed & waned in its efficacy and support from the armchair quarterbacks. It is not a valid criticism given that undeniable fact.
I’ve rolled my eyes at many proposals during GAs (general assemblies). I’ve never had to block any, but I’ve declined to participate in many direct actions if they didn’t suit me, and I’ve proposed some. That’s the beauty of the horizontal leadership.
What about what works? What about not following a failed model of protesting and still hoping that it will be successful? I hate to burst your bubble, but OWS is not new. It is not unique. It is similiar to 3 protests I’ve seen before – all failures.
Not to take anything from the suffering of people of color, but You do know that white students were also killed in Mississippi registering black voters, right? You do recall Abraham Lincoln signing emancipation proclamation and getting assassinated, right?
You do realize that has nothing to do with my comment, right? I never singled out any race, I was talking about the Civil Rights Movement in general.
Mattea’s Mom, what comment? I could not find another comment that you posted in this thread.
That guy with a pony tail is a know it all–basically he’s a moron. His dismissal of movements based on his breathless and exhaustive command of history (or so he seems to claim) is complete hogwash. He claims that unless you have a fully formed movement with all the accompanying accoutrements you won’t amount to squat. So all the revolutions, movements and protests, that produced change were born fully formed from Zeus’ brow, according to Princess Fairytale Ponytail. Presto chango, here you go a fully functioning apparatus for change just add water. Go get thyself an education.
lol …Thanks for the heads up, Tango.
That Guy With the Ponytail = selfimportant “legend in his own mind”-
I don’t know….I was hoping President Obama would speak about OWS. This seems to be a pretty important national event that any president should address.
Maybe they were crass…..but the White House will now have to address it.
With a 29% approval, how important is OWS really? And OWS failed miserably at with their mic-check.
This is just too precious. http://pragmaticobotsunite.blogspot.com/2011/11/sunday-afternoon-thread-class-divides.html
Horizontal leadership sounds cute. But unless it stretches into infinity, someones going to be left out of the decision making.
There are people concerned about the MSM mis-defining the OWS movement. The movement needs to be less vague about defining itself. “We are our demands.” WTF?!?! I keep saying the movement has lost focus, but it never had focus.
This is why people are confused about their message. They have a president who has flown all over the country promoting a bill that can put Americans back to work. They have tried to take the emphasis off this and onto prosecuting people who can’t be prosecuted because they broke no laws. They have a president whose administration is prosecuting the people who can be prosecuted and who are taking the time to build cases about complex issues that will stand up in court and produce convictions. They have an administration that has set up a Consumer Protection Agency and re-regulated the banks and taken student loans out of the hands of banks and passed historic health legislation that is allowing many of these people to stay on their parents’ insurance for an extra year. But none of this seems to be what they want. They are ‘occupying’ places that have nothing to do with the actual change that they seek and they seem to lump every politician and every party into the same box. However under a Republican administration none of the above would have been accomplished so clearly there is a difference and at this moment in time it’s the Democrats who are working for the things that would help the problems the people are upset about. So I am very confused about what they want. An end to greed? A different form of government? Horizontal leadership of the US?
The best answer is for you to go to the websites and read it for yourself at your leisure.
http://occupywallst.org/
http://www.occupytogether.org/
I read and read. It still makes no sense. Actually in a way they remind me of the Tea Party – just in the way that the TP people would hold up signs like “Keep government out of our Medicare” and the OWS people are mad at Pres. Obama who is the only one trying to make things better for them. I don’t compare the two in any other way and actually have sympathy for the OWS people; just seems like a gigantic waste of energy at this point.
The couch is a poor battle station.
You should know, right?
The GOPers will either condescend you, run away, or shout you down, but President Obama will actually listen to your ranting asses, but he’s the problem?
And all these calls for Obama to do something, wasnt these the same fucks who accused the man for sending the DOJ and Homeland Security to disrupt the OWS?
Now they want help from the man who they think of as the titular head of the establishment, to protect them from being beaten down by said establishment?
Can somebody please help me gel this shit more, because its as consistent as a policy stance from Ole Willard Romney
Pick a damn focus, get some damn spokespeople that are not the self elected ones like Mikey Moore and Glen Greenwald, get some damn leaders, and dont give me this “we dont need to be organized” bullshit
Get organized, make your point clear, or fade into obscurity
And if you cant do that, take your whining, bitchy asses, sit down and sip a god damn latte, and sit on it
Demon, you’re right, so long as the Occupy movement is run by the same posers and demagogues who have been having play dates with progressive action for 20 years, nothing will change. And its certainly going need some young bucks who look you’d hire them for regular corporate 9-5. Sorry, but America is dumb like that.
1. Either Obama is Satan or he is a strategic ally for progressive and owes it to the 99% to “fight for us”. He can’t be both and certainly isn’t the former. You can’t bitch at the President to address you then cop an attitude or act a fool when he does address activists. Would you rather have Gingrich, Romney or Cain speak – all who in no uncertain terms promised to go Bull Connor on your wannabe hippie asses? The movements of the past either look to work with the powers that be to make change (King and the Civil Rights movement) or work to build mechanism that empowered people independently (NOI or the Panthers). The Occupiers, because they have no real leader or strategy – can decide on either. You want the President and other Democrats out in the streets with you, but play them for the herb when they show up? To quote Ed Love “C’mon Son – Get The Fuck out of Here with that Bullshit.”
2. Occupy has momentum, now its time to let the pros do the rest or work for a real strategy or learn to do it yourselves. Occupiers don’t necessarily need some Congressman or even Obama to lead the charge. But there are community organizers, labor leaders, ministers and others who have been on the grind for poor people for decades and have done a lot more than mug for cameras or write silly screed in NYT for 20 years. So please, tell Michael Moore, Cornell West, Glenn Greenwald, Joan Walsh, Jane Hamshear and the rest of these talking heads to sit down and find your own leadership. The professional talking heads, Left an Right, are merely trying to hustle their next book or TV show – your movement be damned. What, you thought Glenn Beck gives a damn about the Tea Party? Nah,he’s convincing those old rednecks to buy overpriced gold bullion. Trust me, Michael Moore is going to make a documentary about Occupy Wall Street and will line his pockets with hard scrambled dollars some street performer activists in Echo Park could muster from their part time job at Peet’s Coffee or Amoeba Music. Hustlers can see hustlers and Moore and his running crew are masters of the game.
Number 2 is on the mark. Time to get professional and plan your work. Determine what you need to do and how to do it. That will come from within OWS, if it comes from anywhere. It will not come from entertainers such as Moore or Hamsher or West. Those people have neither the wit, not the wisdom nor the will to lead anyone anywhere.
The wit, the wisdom and the will will have come from within OWS.
Time to get serious.
well-said.
Yes, but no one else is stepping up to the plate like Michael Moore. Why is that?
I don’t understand what you mean – no one is stepping up to the plate like Michael Moore. John Lewis came to speak and was turned away. Has Michael Moore spent the night in a tent? Donated money to sustain efforts? Has he given back all the money he received in Bush tax cuts? The guys is rumored to be worth $53 million, which he antagonistically wouldn’t confirm or deny (google it.) He is one of the 1% you complain about – he doesn’t use union employees, he benefits from a smaller tax burden than those employees, and his hasn’t made ONE sacrifice for any of the causes he claims to believe in. Gun restrictions? He said he owned guns. Labor rights? He doesn’t hire unions. Auto workers? He said General Motors should fail. Michigan? He hasn’t organized or registered voters or even spoke out against any of the GOP lead attacks on unions and working families.
Moore is a fraud and occupiers continued defense of Moore and fascination with his grifting and sideshow is evidence of their political naivete.
Because he has a book he’s trying to sell. Duh.
Yeah, right. (Guffaws) No one else has stepped up because they don’t have books to sell I guess.
A fucking Men!
Testify!
You know I’m with you, ABL.
UNTIL they decide to become OCCUPY VOTING BOOTH, they can kiss my Black Ass.
period.
you want to take it to someone?
take it to Orange Julius and Senator Yertle the Turtle.
they pretend that policy brutality just was invented the other day with those UC students.
fuck that.
where have YOU BEEN?
Black and Brown folks been catching hell from the PO-LICE since the formation of police departments.
and, they never had any damn focus…that’s one point I disagree with you about, ABL.
http://cdn.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/pepper-spray-cop-33.jpg
Exactly, civil rights movement endured for many years, and OW is just in its infancy. It is unrealistic to expect sweeping change to happen overnight, so please do not dismiss this movement.
Michael Moore is getting the message out, like it or not.
The only message Michael Moore has put out is that Democrats’ losing means that he can sell more books, so he wants them to lose.
ows’s biggest accomplishment (aside from bank xfer day) has been shedding light on police militarization and abuses. when it happens normally, nobody notices and cops get away with murder. literally. even as a white suburbanite, I’ve seen it firsthand. I can’t imagine living it like most nonwhites have to. but now the media is paying attention. this is good even if it is frustrating that it took DFHs and iPhone toting hipsters to get attention.
still yea the mic check on Obama was a bit oddly timed. in ows defense most of the Republican candidates have been mic checked and they (not surprisingly) came off as rich assholes whereas Obama owned it and dare I say made some new fans jumping to their defense when the obots started chanting. nicely handled! Obama is a genius in campaign mode.
ows is definitely losing focus but as long as it exists and pushes, it will help drive the narrative leftward. remember when tea party drove the dialog and 2010 happened? ows driving the dialog will only help Obama and Dems no matter what public opinion is. they don’t ever need to embrace it either.
net good IMHO even if it’s not perfect.